Episode 150 - Jason Porterfield

Speaker 0 00:00:07 Welcome to that makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis. Boetti a Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes alludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Hey everybody, my guest and I were just chatting that on this June afternoon in Houston. It's not often that I get to visit with a neighbor. There is just not much, maybe not much better to do than just sit here and have a chat. It's too hot to do anything else. I'm here with Jason Porterfield, who has written an amazing book that I finished this morning called fight like Jesus, how Jesus waged peace throughout holy week. Hey Jason. Speaker 2 00:01:06 Hi Alexis. Speaker 0 00:01:08 I meant to tell you that I was, um, I had taken my daughters to a little training. They're doing a VBS at a little, uh, mainline church over near our part of town. And I had this book with me, so I was, uh, reading it while they were in training. And I had at least two women like, look at the cover, which I'll, I'll put in the show notes, so you guys can see it. So you can, so you can grab a copy and you can see the cover, but it's got a boxing glove with, uh, a poem branch coming out of it. And it just really boldly says fight like Jesus. And they kind of look at me like, oh, and the, they both ask what's that book about <laugh> so Speaker 2 00:01:43 <laugh> Speaker 0 00:01:44 And so I'm sure the answer that I gave them cuz they couldn't read the subtitle quite is clearly from their vantage point. I'm sure the answer that I gave them about Jesus peace making. I wanted to be sure to put that in there. So I didn't think I was reading some sort of like fight manual, you know, that I yeah. Was claiming Jesus is teaching me how to box or something. Speaker 2 00:02:03 That's funny. Speaker 0 00:02:04 Yeah. So I explained it to 'em and that, you know, you were going through the week and everything that you do throughout the book. Um, but I'd love it. Jason, if you just, um, before we get into the, to the book, if you could introduce yourself a little bit and then kind of give us your, a little bit of the backstory as to how you got here, writing a book about Jesus peacemaking, how, how he waged peace as you say. Speaker 2 00:02:32 Sure. Yeah. Well, first off, thanks for having me. It's an honor to be on your podcast. So I, like you said, now I live down in Houston, Texas we're neighbors, but uh, uh, I grew up actually in Pennsylvania. Um, my parents were both in the military, so for the first six years of my life, we lived in eight different places, other countries, but we settled in Pennsylvania and I attended a pretty conservative evangelical church that, uh, was, was pretty patriotic. You know, there was an army base and a Navy base, uh, right next to the church. And um, you know, that, that church, it, it, they really taught me to, to love the Bible, um, and to, to really love Jesus. And, and so after, uh, I graduated high school, I went to a place called Messiah university, which is a historically a, a brethren Christ or Anna Baptist, uh, college. Speaker 2 00:03:21 And there, that was the first place where I began to hear other Christians say things like, you know, when Jesus says, love your enemies. He probably meant don't kill them. Um, and a lot of my Mennonite friends, you know, also started to really, uh, they just had a, a, a beautiful and, and crucial, uh, emphasis on, on justice. Um, and so, um, one of the formative moments for my time, uh, at college, like so many, it actually occurred out of the classroom outside of the classroom. Uh, so this was a Christian college. And so one day I was at chapel, like all, all the students were required to do and a guest speaker got up and he said, uh, I grew up Amish, but God has called me to minister in the city of Philadelphia. And, uh, he went on to say, you know, for the first time in history, more people live inside of cities than outside of them. Speaker 2 00:04:09 But in my city, the city of brotherly love, he said, uh, Christians, as soon as they can get enough money are fleeing to the suburbs. And he went on to say, you know, this is a tragedy. And I remember sitting there in the seat in the gym and I thought I was just making an observation. I just said, you know, God, if, if you could use an Amish person, you could use me a suburban boy, but, but evidently God thought I was volunteering. Um, so chapel ended and I, I joined the, the cattle herd of students trying to squeeze through these two doors at the back of the gym and rush to class. And a friend of mine, she bumped into me and all outta breath. She said, Jason, I just signed you up to lead a spring break service trip to Camden, New Jersey. It's officially ranked the worst city in America that you have to go, God's calling you to this, don't back out. Speaker 2 00:04:57 I mean, my jaw hit the floor. I was just dumbfounded. And, uh, of course I tried to get out of it. <laugh> and so I went down to the agape center, the, uh, kind of mission hub there at the school. And I said, look, there's been a mistake. My friend signed me up. I didn't do this. And then they guilt tripped me. And they said, well, we have nine under, you know, underclassmen signed up and we need an upperclassman, a junior or senior to lead the trip. Otherwise we have to cancel it and they can't go. So sure enough, a few weeks later I'm driving a van to Camden, New Jersey and, and, you know, I had, I had never seen such injustice and despair before. It was the first time I had learned of what I would call environmental racism. Um, these just numerous polluting factories put into predominantly African American and Hispanic communities. Speaker 2 00:05:46 Um, just massive rates of, of cancer, uh, over 30 super fund sites. These sites where there's so much toxin in the ground, they just put a fence around it, cuz it would cost too much to try to clean it up. And they're right next to homes, you know? Um, but there, during that week, I also saw one of the most beautiful things I'd ever seen before. And it was this community of Christians who had all left good paying jobs. They were all college educated and they moved onto what was probably the worst block of what was ranked to the worst city in America. And we spent the week with them and, and they were actually the, the sister community of another community on the other side of the river in Philly called the simple way, which a lot of people know about now with Shane Clayborne. Speaker 2 00:06:27 And um, when I left Camden, I remember going back to Messiah and thinking, well kind like what mother Teresa used to say when volunteers would ask if they could join her and Calcutta, you know, sometimes she'd say yes, but often she'd say Calcutta are everywhere. If you only have eyes to see find your Calcutta. And that's what I felt called to do. And so, um, after graduating, I ended up joining a group called servants. Uh, servants is an international network of Christian communities who, um, just like the, that community in Camden, uh, they feel called to live and minister among the urban poor and for servants historically, that was in the slums of Asia's mega cities. So it was started by a new Zealander back in 82, um, starting a, uh, forming a team to go to the slums of Manila. And, um, but when I joined, they were having their first Western, uh, community, uh, forming. Speaker 2 00:07:21 And that was because they had growing interest from north Americans and they thought, well, how do we live out? What we feel called to do in the slums of Asia in a Western context. And so they were gonna start a new community in Canada's poorest, urban neighborhood. It's a section of Vancouver known as the downtown east side. So it was actually January 1st, you know, new year's day. Uh, it was a new chapter for my life, not just a new year start of a new year. And so that's when I landed in Vancouver. Uh, and after that at about three years in Vancouver spent a year in Indonesia, starting a new community there and then helped oversee the sending office for a few years and now serve on the board. Speaker 0 00:07:57 Wow. Um, I, I got a little distracted thinking about Vancouver in January. <laugh> Speaker 0 00:08:05 Off freezing cold. That must have been, but, um, thank you for sharing that, Jason, and, and I wanna, I wanna bring you to the, the preface of the book because you talk about your time in Vancouver at the beginning of this book. And, um, and I think it's really important. Um, if, if you could share that, I'm gonna ask you to share that here. Um, if you will, because I think it's really important. Um, everything you just shared is, is real life and important and, and important to sharing the gospel and important to living out the gospel and being embodied in that way and what you share in the prefaces. Also, <laugh> important to that. Um, which is that in short, it doesn't always look like the dream when, you know, or, you know, you weren't in the back of the, uh, in the back of the chapel dreaming of this, but, but there are people who are, and sometimes when the rubber meets the road, it doesn't quite look like what you might think it might look like or feel like what you might think it might feel like. So what happened in Vancouver after you'd been there for a minute? Speaker 2 00:09:11 Yeah. You know, when you tie your wellbeing to the wellbeing of others who are marginalized and experiencing suffering, you yourself also usually will experience, uh, great suffering. So, um, the downtown east side, it's a small community, a neighborhood it's, uh, just about two square kilometers in, in size, but yet it's, it's home to 5,000 people struggling with addictions to drugs, 1200 experiencing homelessness and, and on any given night, over 900 women trapped in prostitution, um, the United nations actually once described it, uh, as a two kilometer stretch of decay, rooming houses, CD strip bars, and shady pawn shops. So I knew about the, the struggles with homelessness and drug issues, et cetera, when I moved there. But that was about the extent of the homework I did. And so I was blindsided, you know, just about, well, it was literally three weeks after I arrived. Speaker 2 00:10:07 The jury trial began in a nearby courthouse for the man that we would soon learn was Canada's deadliest, serial killer, Robert Pickton. And, and so for over a decade, Pickton would leave his, his farm on the outskits of Vancouver drive into the downtown east side, pick up one of the women engaged in prostitution, take her back to his farm, butcher her and feed her to his pigs. And by the time of his arrest, as he actually later confessed to an undercover cop, posing us a cellmate, he had killed 49 women, just, just one shy of his goal. Um, and you know, needless to say, my neighbors were, were scared. Uh, they were distraught, you know, um, Picton's victims were the closest thing to family that many of them ever knew. Um, they wondered, you know, is there gonna be a copycat? What if Pickton didn't work alone? Speaker 2 00:10:58 But I think most of all, my, my neighbors were angry and, and they had every right to be, I mean, why had the police been so slow to listen to their cries for help? They have been telling them for years, our friends are disappearing. And so, you know, Shirley Pickton would never have been able to kill. So as many people as victims had been prominent women from, from the center of society. So when I moved to Vancouver, I thought of myself as a peacemaker that peacemaking theology had really, uh, gotten into my core during my time at Messiah university. So in other words, I felt like GA was calling me to work for the flourishing of this beautiful yet broken community. But it, it didn't take long before my neighbors, um, brokenness broken me. And I quickly realized that, that I was a failure of a peacemaker. Speaker 2 00:11:46 I mean, I had no idea how to sew peace in that context. And so one day I, I, I dragged myself to church with what felt like my last ounce of energy. And I sat down in the pew and it turned out to be Palm Sunday. And, uh, you know, just like most churches do this church turned the day into a joyous occasion. So the, the kids paraded through the sanctuary, we, uh, waved Palm branches with Gusto. We sang upbeat HNS and everyone shouted <laugh> and, and I just was in no mood to participate. I, I was burnt out. And, uh, so I remember sitting in the pew and when the congregation stood to sing yet another happy tune, I, I just cried out to God. And I said, God, I have no idea how to make peace, but yet I still believe you're in the resurrection business. Speaker 2 00:12:35 I still believe you breathe new life into dying communities. And so I remember just begging him there in that church, will you teach me how to make peace? And, you know, I'm telling you probably the only two stories in which God answered one of my prayers quickly. It doesn't usually happen this way, but soon after the pastor got up and again, I was in no mood to listen to a feel good message. So I thought, well, I'll just open the Bible and read one of the gospel accounts of Palm Sunday. And so I randomly chose Luke Luke's gospel. And that's when I noticed something that has forever changed my life. I mean, it's taken years to unpack the implications of that discovery, the fruit of which is this book. But as I sat in that pew all those years ago, I realized, I discovered where the answer to my prayer was to be found. Speaker 2 00:13:22 And that's because in Luke's gospel, he, he paints this very dissonant scene that we tend to overlook. Uh, you know, it says that when the crowds were shouting, cheers, Luke tells us that Jesus was shedding tears. And when he could hold back, his grief no more, he cried aloud for all to hear. If only you knew on this of all days, the things that make for peace and what hit me that day, uh, in that church was what if this was what was on most, uh, was on the foremost, uh, thought for Jesus as he entered into his final days. In other words, what if making peace and correcting or misguided assumptions about how peace is made is what Jesus was striving to do throughout his last week leading up to the cross. Um, and so I remember just, uh, feeling like God was saying to me there in that church, I want you to study the greatest peacemakers greatest week. Speaker 2 00:14:19 And so that's really, uh, you know, where the book came out of that, you know, um, historically the church has tended to look at the sermon on the Mount when wanting to study Jesus' peace teaching. And that makes sense. It contains such, you know, beautiful teachings, love your enemies, pray for those, uh, who curse you, um, you know, um, do not violently resist and evil doer. Um, but the beautiful thing about Jesus as last week or what we sometimes refer to as holy week, I is that it's the main stage on which we get to see Jesus put all of his previous peace teaching into action. So formerly abstract principles, like, uh, turn the other cheek, they find concrete expression and, and those lofty ethical ideals love your enemies. They become grounded in actual events. Uh, and so Holyoke really just became my, my training manual to try to become a better peacemaker. Speaker 0 00:15:10 Oh, I love, absolutely love how this book is set up. Um, and how you do that. Uh, so, so just so everyone, we're kind of on the same page, um, Jason takes from Palm Sunday. Thank you for sharing that story from Vancouver, but from, um, from Palm Sunday to Easter, essentially. So, so sun Sunday to, to, to Sunday basically, um, and, and devotes a chapter to each day of that week. And, um, I just love like the way that the synoptic gospels and John come together, the way that you weave, um, the theology throughout the pages. Um, but when I was chatting, you know, ended up chatting with one of the, one of the women who had made the comment of the book and I was telling her kind of what it was about and what I just said, just now about the format. And she said, well, how is it, you know, how how's, how's the book? Speaker 0 00:16:07 And I said, well, it's great so far. Um, but I'm only on Tuesday and she kind of looked at me and she was like, oh, and I said, which, you know, this is a mainline church. So I know that they do, you know, uh, go through the week like this. And I said, which as the author points out, the church is largely, largely ignores Tuesday. You know, the church largely ignores Tuesday when we're looking at this week. But according to him, there's a lot of meat there. And I said, and then I'm quoting you, right? I'm like, it's dialogue. It's not necessarily events, but look at all of the stuff that happens on Tuesday, look at all the things that Jesus said. And I kind of pointed out, you know, two or a couple of the things that couple of the conversations that Jesus had on Tuesday that were really meaningful. Speaker 0 00:16:44 Um, but I love how you have woven that to where each day has its own lessons, uh, from Jesus on peace, making it just completely, it just opened my eyes to a lot of things that I think we miss. And I just wanna say for myself, and I hope we'll get into it a little bit more. The overarching maybe benefit for me as a reader was that I think a, this week for us is so common, right. We, if, even if we don't go through it on our daily Bible reading, we read it every year at church. And so this becomes a very commonplace, um, but it also moves through rather quickly in the stories of the gospels, because there's, it's only a fraction. I mean, probably with the exception of John, where the dialogue is quite a bit longer, um, it's really only a, a fraction in the synoptic gospels. And so what I appreciated was the context that you bring to this week. It's like the gospels, tell us a great story. And it's a great narrative, but it's very, very different, you know, hearing your kids tell you what happened at school. Like, you know, when they get back and it's like, they tell you what happened at school takes them five minutes, but you're like, dude, you were there for seven hours, right? Yes. Thought there was a lot more happening. And so I kind of felt that way like that you gave us, Speaker 2 00:18:10 So you get five minutes outta your kids, five minutes, I get Speaker 0 00:18:13 Exaggerating. <laugh>, I'm probably exaggerating a bit. Right. Um, but yeah, so I feel like, you know, I'm going well, you were there for a long time. You can summarize it in, in this short of a way, but I love how you bring the context, right? The historical context for all of this out. And so I know we'll chat about that a little bit, but I just wanna reader or listeners to kind of kind understand where we were coming from on the, on the pages of the book, because it's a really unique way to line this out, but I really appreciated, uh, how you did it, how you kind of set that up systematically for us to, for us to go through chronologically, um, during this week. And you got us started on Palm Sunday, but I know there were some things, um, that you wanted to share about specifically about Jesus entry and Jerusalem, and some of that historical context that I just brought up, like what this would have meant for them that is maybe slightly different or at least, um, enlarges a bit for us when we, when we think about the, the crowds cheering on Palm Sunday. Speaker 2 00:19:15 Yeah, sure. So what we call holy week, or Jesus's last week, it took place, um, during the Passover festivities. And so every year devout Jews would gather in Jerusalem to commemorate Passover. And if you, you have to remember the context of what Passover was celebrating. It, it was to mark the time that God liberated his people from Egyptian slavery. And so just, you know, you can imagine as these Jews gather each year in Jerusalem, while they're once again being oppressed by a foreign superpower this time, it just happens to be Rome. You know, there were the sods, this Syrians, I mean, you name it right Babylonians. And so year after years, they gathered together. They celebrated the time God won their historic liberation and year after year, they hoped he would do so once again. And so the week actually had a track record of inciting all out insurrection. Speaker 2 00:20:18 So in four BCS, uh, some Jews, uh, killed a group of Roman soldiers and the provincial ruler at the time he put an end actually to the Passover canceled, Passover sent everyone home. And because of that event, Rome, uh, created a new policy because they said, you never, again, can we let that happen? Uh, Passover week, it's a dangerous time, you know, it, it, um, and so they required their, their provincial ruler to bring reinforcement during Passover and actually, um, at, um, historians think that the ruler would actually at least double the number of troops in Jerusalem. So, um, you know, during the, the year that our story takes place, you know, Jesus's last week, it, it was, um, conscious pilot and he left his coastal home Caesarea MEMA and marched soldiers. Let me get my directions correctly here. Uh, eastward <laugh> toward Jerusalem and would've con come in through the Westgate of Jerusalem and curiously, you know, we read that at, at the same time for the start of Passover, Jesus actually made a, not so triumphal entry from the other side of the city. Speaker 2 00:21:27 Uh, so there's this beautiful imagery here of these two, uh, competing approaches to making and maintaining peace. Um, and then, you know, I think it's important to understand what Jesus is doing. You have to first understand what the crowds actions signify. And so, um, you know, it's, it's weird that our churches like that church in Vancouver, we tend to match the crowd's glee instead of our Savior's grief. Somehow we, we still overlook the fact that he was lamenting about how we don't know how to make peace. So when you think about the crowd's actions, um, you know, first of all, we read that they were chanting HOA, which I thought was like synonymous with hallelujah. Like it was a, a word of praise, but the word HOA, it actually, it comes from it's a Aramaic form of a two part Hebrew word HOIA and the emphatic particle NA placed on the end and HOIA means deliver us, save us, liberate us and, and NA again, it adds this, this urgency. Speaker 2 00:22:30 And so it literally means like, uh, save us now, deliver us. We plead it's a, it's a cry for liberation. Well, we also read that they quote a Psalm, they sing a Psalm over Jesus blessed as he who comes in the name of the Lord Psalm one 18. But then they add a few words, not found in that Psalm. And they say the king of Israel. So they call him their king. We also read that they lay their coats on the ground, which may seem strange to you and I, but, but for his now codeless onlookers, it was, they knew what they were doing. It was the customary way to coordinate a new king. It's what they did for, for JHU, for example, back in the old Testament. And then finally, there's the Palm branches. And, and I always thought that Palm branches kind of fun functioned like the, the ancient equivalent to those giant foam hands you see at sporting events, you know, like waving them. Speaker 2 00:23:22 I thought, you're awesome. Jesus, I'm your number one fan. But they actually had quite a different meaning. Um, and so this is a little bit of a history lesson here, but about 200 years, uh, before the Jesus' triumphal entry, the Sal empire ruled over, uh, the province of Judah and Judea and, and, um, their king king, uh, epiphany. And is the fourth. He actually went into the temple, slaughtered a pig on the altar, an unclean animal, right, and sprinkled its blood throughout the temple, thus defiling the temple. And then he ordered that all the towns in that, in that area, uh, offer sacrifices to his gods. And he sent inspectors to make sure that every town did it. And so there was one little town, the town of Moda where when, when the King's inspector got there, uh, one of the Jewish P people there in the town volunteered to offer a sacrifice to their gods, but there was an old priest named to Matt Theas and he lunged forward. Speaker 2 00:24:27 And he stabbed that apostate to death, killed the King's inspector, tore down the, the altar, and then fled to the Hills. And soon after his, his health deteriorated and he was on his deathbed. And so he gathered his five sons around him and his dying words were this Aven the wrong done to your people, pay back the Gentiles in full well, his third son Judas his middle child. He took up that battle cry, and he actually led a fairly successful, uh, insurrection attempt against the sods. In fact, he was so fierce in battle that he earned the nickname Makabis, which means the hammer. And so, you know, at one point he actually, uh, gets back a, a sizable portion of Jerusalem. And as he makes his triumphal entry into the city, we read that the crowds waved Palm branches, and, you know, even, um, years after Jesus', uh, uh, triumphal entry, we read, for example, during the Jewish Roman wars, um, that when the people of Israel thought they were gonna get their independence back again, they started to mint their own coins, which the macab beans did as well. Speaker 2 00:25:39 And on those coins, they put a Palm branch and circled and circled it with the battle cry for the redemption of Zion. So in other words, the, this, this Palm branch, it functioned a lot like, uh, a separatist movements flag would today, you know, waving them signified. We long to be liberated. What's more waving them at Jesus meant. And we think you're our liberator <laugh>. Uh, so that's what the crowd's actions signify and why Jesus Ries out. If only you knew the things that actually make for peace, but I don't think this surprised Jesus, um, the surprise Jesus. Um, and so his response is really telling, so the obvious, uh, thing he did is that he Rodee a donkey instead of a war horse. So when a king or a ruler made a Trium into a city, they could ride a war horse if their, if their intentions were well waring, um, or they could ride a donkey if their intentions were peaceful. Speaker 2 00:26:35 And, uh, thankfully, you know, the gospel of John has this really important parenthetical aside to the reader where John says, Jesus wrote this donkey to fulfill Zechariah's vision in chapter nine versus nine and 10 of a peaceable king. And it's this beautiful vision. It, it speaks of this king coming, riding on a donkey, taking away the weapons of war from his own people, Israel, and the Israeli tribe of, for him. And it says that this peaceable king will speak peace to all nations. And so, uh, that's what the donkey signifies, but the timing and the location is also really important. You know, it's the first day of Passover more specifically, it's the 10th day of the Jewish month of naan. It was the day when, according to Moses way back in the Penta took all the devout Jews would gather together and select a lamb that they would then hold onto for four days. Speaker 2 00:27:25 And we know from historical records that the lambs were supplied primarily from Bethlehem, and they were brought in through what was called the sheep gate. Well, we know from Jesus' route and the timing that he entered on the day lambs were selected. And as he, uh, went down, the Mount of olives, crossed the Kidron valley, he then lined up, um, with the route the sheep would take. And most likely went in through that same gate. That's the most obvious gate. In other words, signifying, I'm not the hammer of God like Judas Makabis I am the lamb of God. Speaker 0 00:28:00 Yeah. Thanks for sharing that, Jason. It, uh, I think you point out in the book, and this was actually one of those, um, mind blowing moments for me. It was actually about 20 years ago. Um, my husband and I were in a group of, uh, group of college kids. I say kids now, because that's just in real life, what we, what we were then. But, um, we were, uh, in a Bible study, you know, way back when, and we had a Bible teacher who was teaching us on, um, some of this history that you just gave and specifically with Jesus coming through the sheeps gate on that specific date and that, you know, traditionally the lambs were then kept. Right. And I think you, I think you talk about it in the book as well, that they were kept in the household for like four days so that, um, because the, the lamb had to be without blemish, it essentially had to be a perfect animal. Speaker 0 00:28:50 And so it would be one of those things, you know, it's kind of gross or whatever, but like, you don't wanna have a lamb that maybe had nicked itself or something. And then he comes in and starts with like an oozing. So, or something like that. Right. And they're paying attention to this lamb during the course of these days to make sure that the lamb is indeed, uh, fit for sacrifice, um, that would happen and pass over. And so the days in your book, um, in a, in a way they kind of continue that, uh, that symbol, that symbol that we see of when Jesus coming in, that people would have been watching him <laugh> and were watching him for those four days. Speaker 2 00:29:29 Yeah, man, I wish I remember things I heard in a Bible study 20 years ago. <laugh> Speaker 0 00:29:34 Well, it was one of those that blew my mind. Right. And so it's like, gosh, it hasn't left, right? Speaker 2 00:29:38 Yeah, no, that's exactly right. Uh, not only does Moses say you'll choose the lambs on the 10th day of naan, but he says, and you'll keep that lamb, like you just said to inspect it for four days, you'll keep it at least to the 14th day of naan. And so just like you said, you know, Jesus, as the lamb of God, the ultimate Paschal lamb, he spends most of the next four days in the public answering their questions, uh, clarifying their mistaken beliefs about God. Um, in other words, letting people inspect him to, yeah, it's, it is beautiful imagery. Speaker 0 00:30:10 It is, it is beautiful. And I, I, I know we're, we'll hopefully get to come back to the hammer, uh, portion of it. But when you, when you talk about that and you say, okay, well, you've got, you know, in my mind, there's like a bullet point list, right? We're gonna say, Jesus did. He did not come in on a war horse. He's trying to show people. He's not the hammer he's coming in the opposite gate of pilot. You know, he is got, we've got all of these things in our mind. He's weeping. Like he's lamenting, we're reminded that this is not, war is not his Mo this is not what he is here to do at this moment. And then this is just one of the places in the book that I'm just like, I need, I need, I need to read this every year, but then we've got this place in the week where we say, okay, well, yeah, but Jesus just went down and he just started whipping things. Speaker 0 00:31:01 Right. And, and we I'm gonna use, we kind of, as the church, anytime somebody starts talking about Jesus as a peacemaker, um, I think that comes up as like, well, you' really sure cuz you know, don't remember that time when he like tore it up in the temple and, and you have a different take on that. That was another one of those places that was kind of a mind, a mind blown, uh, place for me. So do you mind talking about those? I think people kind of know what we're talking about, but just kind of give it, give us the context of the, of Jesus whipping, cuz that took place during this last week. Speaker 2 00:31:38 Yeah. You know, I didn't write this book for it to be, um, you know, apologetic in the sense of trying to address questions of those who don't hold to a non-violent peace making stance. But what's interesting is a number of the events that people do raise an objection to this idea that Jesus, uh, said, you know, told his fathers not to use violence are some of the events from his final week. So you just touched on one, the cleansing of the temple. There's also on Thursday, this seemingly strange scene where Jesus, uh, tells him to buy swords two swords. Right. Um, and, and there's a couple other scenes as well. And so it was fun to be able to, to talk about those and show how they're not, not only are they not toxic texts, um, but they actually, when rightly understood advance our understanding of how Jesus makes peace. Speaker 2 00:32:26 So, so it's, it's fascinating that, you know, his triumphal injury, John tells us he's fulfilling this vision of a peaceable king. Who's gonna remove the weapons of war. But then the very next day, Monday, he goes into the temple. And the way we usually tell the story, he picks up a weapon of war and, and starts whipping people. And um, you know, it's interesting, uh, the there's a, the world, uh, painting index that catalogs, you know, a lot of the, the most famous paintings around the world, it lists numerous paintings about the temple cleansing, but there's not a single one that doesn't depict Jesus behaving violently using the whip on people. And so, um, I, I break that in, in the chapter on Monday. Um, I break that event down into three stages because I think that's what the gospel writers do. So there's, um, the assessing phase, which actually occurs the night before. Speaker 2 00:33:19 Um, and so Jesus, you know, he finally gets into Jerusalem after his not so triumphal entry. And it says that he looks around the temple and he assesses the situation. And so we usually depict the cleansing on Monday as Jesus, just, uh, something causes him to snap or as I kind of Quip in the book to have a massive temple tantrum. Right. Um, but actually what we know is, is that Jesus actually then returned to Bethany for the night, which is about two miles outside of Jerusalem. And he had all night to think about what he saw and when he came back, I would argue that his actions were actually calculated. And, and so in that chapter, I, I look at the evidence, I basically ask the question in the second phase, um, did Jesus whip people, what does the text say? What's the evidence say? Speaker 2 00:34:06 And, and so, you know, I talk about, uh, what it says about the whip. It says that Jesus made a whip out of chords once he was already in the temple. So he didn't bring this well designed instrument of torture with him. He hastily made it from some limited materials and it names those materials, uh, the NRV calls it chords, but it's, it's, uh, the Greek word scone, which it's more akin to like, uh, like Wicker material. And so when I learned that I did what all good millennials do, I just barely make it into the millennial category. I went to Amazon, I found a 200 foot roll of Wicker material. It had free two day shipping. It seemed like a godsend. So I ordered it and then I immediately felt guilty for supporting Amazon, you know? Um, and then when it came, I put, I think that if I remember right, I put on the Indiana Jones trilogy with some of my kids and, and I had just spent hours trying to make the most intimidating whip I possibly could. Speaker 2 00:35:01 And in the end, my whips were a joke. I mean, they, they were like pseudo whips. You know, if I had tried to wave that in the temple, I think people would've fallen over laughing instead of running in fear. And interestingly, the oldest manuscripts, the two oldest manuscripts we have of that, uh, section of, of John's gospel, where it mentions the whip. It actually adds the little Greek word host, which means to approximate something. So it's used when it speaks of Jesus sweating, something like blood, that's the word host there. So in other words, John's saying he, he made something like a whip, a, a whip of sorts, a pseudo whip. Um, and, and so then I look, you know, more at, at the animals, uh, that are there, you know, we have pretty good historical records of, of the materials usually found in the temple. Speaker 2 00:35:48 And so the prevailing theory of where Jesus found this material is that it was the animal betting that was used for the sheep and the cattle that were there in the temple. I look at how, um, we know that there was temple, uh, security there, and the reinforcement that pilot brought were stationed in the, uh, fortres the tower of atonia, which actually looks down into the temple. And so if they thought he was about to start another insurrection, they would've been down there in a second, but ultimately it all comes down to what does the passage itself actually say? And so this is probably the, the one point in the book where we just really slow down and look at the Greek. I, I tried to do it in the most accessible way possible. You know, you don't need to understand biblical Greek to, to, to dive into it, but the, the crucial verse it's, it continues. Speaker 2 00:36:39 He made a whip out and making a whip out of cords. He drove out of the temple all and then has the little Greek word tuck the sheep and then Chi, which is the word and the cattle to the sheep Chi the cattle. And so I just said, well, let's look at every time, this, this construction to a noun, Kai, a noun is used in the new Testament and it's used 90 times, 89 times elsewhere. And then this time in John chapter two about the temple cleansing. And, uh, and what's interesting is every time it's used it signifies what the noun it's modifying is comprised of. So that sounds confusing. But the noun in this verse, you drove out of the temple all. So it's saying, what is the all comprised of it's comprised of the sheep and the cattle. And in fact, there's 12 other uses where that to now kind now construction is modifying a form of the word all just like it does in the key verse that I was looking at. Speaker 2 00:37:37 Um, and so I'm not the only one that's done that. I quote a number of other scholars that make the case that it, you cannot, uh, translate the Greek of that verse as saying Jesus whipped people to do that. You'd have to translate it in a way it's not translated anywhere else. Uh, so we, we look at that and, and the point though, so that might neutralize a toxic text, right? GE but Jesus still seems angry, assertive, aggressive. And so I, I tell a, uh, a story to try to help kind of make sense of how does this teach us about how Jesus makes peace. And, um, I talk about, you know, imagine a mother or a father getting off work early unexpectedly. And so coming home, opening the front door, walking in and seeing that her teenage son and his friends are high let's say on, on prescription painkillers. Speaker 2 00:38:24 And so immediately this mom would, would snap into action, you know, grab those painkillers off the coffee table, run into the bathroom, pour them into the, the toilet, flush them down the drain, walk back into the living room and look, her son and his friends in the eyes and say, you know, your bodies are made in the image of God, stop destroying them with these drugs. Now we would, you know, was this mother angry, assertive, and aggressive, but, you know, I suppose we could say so. Um, did she, uh, pour out the pills, flip over a table and give a good tongue lashing to her son and friends? Yeah. But we would actually accuse the mother of negligence if she hadn't acted. Um, and I think it's the same for Jesus. Was he angry, assertive, and aggressive? Yeah, I suppose you could say so did he flip over tables, pour out the coins, give a good tongue lashing to the dove sellers? Yeah. That that's because that's what God does. He refuses to stand by idly and do nothing when confronted with injustice. Speaker 0 00:39:26 Yeah. I think one of the most, um, one of the most powerful things about that setting on that day to me, that just reinforces the point that you're bringing up is when it's, it's, it's pretty quickly after that, that we see then in my imagination, it's like people flooding in, um, to this space because Jesus then begins to heal people. And, um, and I think, you know, what if I were a vulnerable per a person in a vulnerable position who needed physical healing of some sort, would I, would it make sense to run towards someone that I had just seen abuse people mm-hmm <affirmative> right. Or who I'd just seen have, as you say, a temple tantrum. Right. Would it, would it make sense for me in my vulnerable state to move toward someone who had just created some sort of scary scene and, and lashed out in fury, right. Speaker 0 00:40:29 Like that doesn't make sense. Right. They're they're to, to that brings the point home for me that this was a loving action that Jesus made that Jesus did in this time. And it wasn't wouldn't have even been at the time construed as something violent. Um, but it would have been something that was construed as, um, as just, and, uh, and protective, um, you know, um, in my imagination. And if this isn't, if this isn't good, I'll just ask my husband to cut it later, if you, if you think. No, I don't think that, but like, in my, in my imagination, I even kind of thought when you were talking about, and this didn't come up when I was reading it, but just now as you were, as you were talking, um, and I, I was imagining the animals actually leaving, like if he drove them out, like even that almost being a signal of like, he is, this is a protective stance, right? Speaker 0 00:41:24 It's not that yes, the animals would've been sacrificed in the years and you know, all of this, it's not, not to say anything about the, the, the sacrificial system of the temple. That's a whole different theological discussion, but I mean, I'm just saying like, um, someone who would be showing this kind of, of attitude toward animals, like, you know, they would be leaving unharmed, um, in, in the course of this action. And then the invitation almost, it feels like for the people who are in vulnerable positions to come in to be near to Jesus, to be healed, all of those things like that scene plays a lot differently. Mm-hmm <affirmative> than the violence scene that we imagine. And that has been painted and portrayed, um, in other places throughout church history. Speaker 2 00:42:09 Yeah. That that's a profound observation. And I had not even thought about that. Just that, that idea that if Jesus had been, you know, physically abusing people, why would, uh, those who had been marginalized, the blind and the lame, it says come to him, <laugh>, you know, uh, I had never thought about that before. That's a great observation. Yeah. Um, trying to think what else to say on that. You, you know, it's interesting that even when, later in the week, when Jesus stands trial, and they're trying to find some false evidence to, to be able to accuse him that those who are falsely accusing him, they don't even bring up. They, you know, if, if he had been violent in the temple, that would've been great <laugh>, uh, evidence. Right. But they don't bring up that, you know, and he even appeals to his peaceable, him, uh, behaving peaceably in the temple, uh, during that time. Yeah. And so his, you know, historically those sorts of whips were actually used. So cattle and sheep would've been familiar with that sort of whip. Um, I had learned in my research for the book. And so it was, uh, traditionally you'd actually kind of whack it on the ground. It was more to make a noise to shoot these animals out. So Speaker 0 00:43:17 Yeah, we used to shake a can with one of our dogs, with a penny in it. Right. She was like, yeah, we used to for like shake the can, you know, she would biting on something she wasn't supposed to be, or whatever the noise kind of startled her. And then she would, you know, she would kinda move out. And I, so if I didn't read that in your book, then that seed was planted somewhere else. So I wish I could give credit where credit is due, but that, that, that seed was planted theologically in my mind, in my imagination, somewhere of the people, um, being drawn, you know, being drawn to him instead of Speaker 2 00:43:43 Being kinda Speaker 0 00:43:44 Put away from him. Speaker 2 00:43:45 So the, the three stages, you know, the preparation I talked about the night before the action itself, and then the part that we tend to not focus on is his, his explanation where he quotes from two, uh, um, profits, Isaiah and Jeremiah, to explain why he did this to, and he raises, you know, this is what the injustice was that was going on. And then we tend to overlook, like you just said, the fact that once the animals have been driven out and their owners hightailed it after their source of income there's space. Now, for those who had always been prohibited from coming into the temple, uh, you know, David had prohibited the blind in the land from coming into the temple and children, we read could be heard singing, praising Jesus. And they had always been not allowed there in the temple, um, Stanley <inaudible> points out. And so we tend to overlook that part. Right. Speaker 0 00:44:32 Yeah. But it's something that, again, it was one of those places in the book where I was like, oh man, like, I, I think because, like I said, it's, it's, I love the gospel writers. Right. But there's no way to fit all of this right into and into, into that, uh, into, into just those words. Um, oh my goodness. I promise we're not gonna go through every day cuz we just don't have time, but <laugh> um, I'm, I'm now I'm kind of thinking maybe if you can just touch just as a favor to me, if you can just touch, I'm gonna use the alliteration here, touch on the taxes on Tuesday. <laugh> Speaker 2 00:45:11 <laugh> Speaker 0 00:45:12 You can just, I bet. I mean, we can, we can, we can, we can move on to Friday after that. Cuz I know we both really wanna get to, uh, to, to that. Um, but I think that this dialogue day, as you, as you refer to it, you know, we kind of sweep over it because there was no temple cleansing, you know, the anointing hasn't happened yet and it's just, and it's a lot of words, right. But these were, this chapter, um, felt really formative to me as I thought about, um, you know, politically the implications. And you touched on that with him coming in on Sunday and the different kind of leadership that he was providing, that the people weren't anticipating really probably even wanting. Um, but then, but then this Tuesday dialogue, especially with the taxes, uh, to me highlights the, the kingdom politics of, uh, of his last week and kind of even how we live it out now. Speaker 2 00:46:11 Yeah. Um, so where to start on this Speaker 0 00:46:15 <laugh> I know, I know it's so rich, Speaker 2 00:46:17 You know, that lament from the very first day of his final week, if only you knew the things that make for peace, uh, I think one of the reasons it's so important is because it reveals to us that we can't reduce Jesus' peace making efforts to one solitary act when you spoke of things in the plural that make for peace. And what that does is it helps us realize that Jesus was crucified on Friday, precisely because of how he contended for our peace on the previous days of holy week. And, and one of my deep concerns as I wrote this book was realizing that most books that look at Jesus' last week rush right away to Friday, and that tends to be what we do as well. You know, we celebrate plum Sunday and then we do nothing until at best, maybe a Monday, Thursday, uh, evening service. Speaker 2 00:47:05 And it makes sense we're we're in a hurry to get to the main event. But my, my big concern is I'm afraid that many of us, when we rush to the main event, we may, we may cling to the cross of Christ for our salvation without realizing that we've actually embraced the very approach to peace making that justified, nailing him to that cross, um, you know, this approach to peace, making that justifies killing enemies that justifies nailing them to crosses. And so what's what I find interesting is that the gospel writers actually front load their coverage of his final week. So Tuesday is actually the most talked about day of his last week. In fact, um, Matthew has more to say about that day than all the other days of holy week combined. It's more than twice as long as his coverage of the sermon on the Mount. Speaker 2 00:47:54 Um, and so one of my deep concerns is that in our passion to lift up the cross, we've accidentally uprooted it from its context and severed it from the life of the one who gives it meaning. So we think we're making much of the cross, but we're actually diminishing its significance. So Tuesday is actually my, my longest chapter because it's the most talked about day of the week in the gospels and I wanted to give it justice. And so, um, you know, what's fascinating is some Mondays the temple cleansing and then on Tuesday, Jesus has the audacity to go back to the temple <laugh> I love it. And, and maybe it was the safest place for him to be, cuz it was teaming with his supporters. And so we read that the religious leaders, they decide to ask him a series of baited questions, four of them, uh, in hopes that he'll inevitably misspeak and believe must speak and drive a wedge between Jesus and his supporters so they can finally arrest him. Speaker 2 00:48:48 And so the second, if I remember right beta question that they ask is the, the, uh, what we often call the render to Caesar question, right? The, is it right to pay, uh, the poll tax? Um, should we pay or shouldn't we is the way they ask it. And um, I think it's one of the most brilliantly told stories and answers in all of the gospels and we probably just don't have time to, to give it justice. But, um, you know, the, the religious leaders who are actually in charge of collecting the poll text, it says they came up with the question, but they couldn't ask it cause everyone would know it's a sham. So they sent, uh, some Herodians and Pharisees, which was brilliant, cuz the Herodians tended to approve of the tax. The Pharisees did not approve of it. Um, and so they asked the question and they first tried to butter Jesus up, um, with, uh, this flattery that that's actually deceiving. Speaker 2 00:49:40 Um, they say, you know, we know you're not swayed by what other people think, but you speak the truth no matter what. Um, and then they ask that question and Jesus in his answer, um, it's, it's just brilliant, you know, um, uh, first he, he said asks if they have, uh, the, the coin that was used, the dirius and they hand him on, well, what's important to know is, is that, um, the dirius that had Caesar's image on it and it had, so, um, it also had the goddess of, of peace on the back PAX Roman. Right. And, and so it actually violated the first and second commandments. And so really devout Jews refused to carry this coin, uh, no other graven image. Right. And, and, and so, you know, Rome didn't care how they got paid as long as they got paid. So they let the Jewish people meant a different coin, uh, to pay the poll tax with. Speaker 2 00:50:36 So when Jesus asks to see a Dari, you know, he reveals, he doesn't have one, but when they quickly pull one out, they realize they reveal <laugh> that Rodan and Pharisees reveal that actually they did. And in fact, they had brought it into the, the temple <laugh>. Um, and so then he, he goes onto his next move and, and he says, well, whose image is this? And right away, they reply with Caesars. And, um, it's easy to overlook in our English translations, but in their, their praise where they're trying to butter him up at the start, they actually use a, a Hebrew idiom that literally says, um, you don't look at people's faces. And, and so here's Jesus saying, uh, yeah, who is this right? Who is this? And evidently they do look to the face of Caesar for P protection and peace. Um, and so it's already check and mate before, you know, he even gives his famous answer, but evidently, you know, Jesus must have thought there was an important lesson he could teach here. Speaker 2 00:51:32 And so his famous answer render into Caesar that, which is Caesar into God, that, which is God's well, what he does there, he actually switches two important words. And the word that we translate as render, it literally means return or give back or pay back. That's not the verb that they had used when they asked the question, is it right to pay? And so what Jesus is saying there is, um, you know, before you can to answer the question, is it right to pay the tax or not? You have to answer an even deeper question, namely, who does it belong to, uh, from the start, right? You can't return something to someone unless you know, who, uh, who it belongs to. Well, any Jew with even a cursory understanding of the Hebrew scriptures, would've been familiar with the mantra that runs throughout it, that everything belongs to the Lord. Speaker 2 00:52:24 In fact, the, the conclusion of his answer to the previous beta question was to say that, no, you religious leaders. You're just like tenants in the vineyard, but God owns the vineyard. <laugh>. And, and so, um, you know, it's fascinating that I think it says in the passage, uh, it, I think it's in Mark's gospel, that the crowd were amazed at his answer. And it it's a strong wording Greek. I mean, they're just flabbergasted by his answer, but I think most of us are like, oh yeah, that makes sense. You know, dual allegiance, you know, we're citizens of an earthly nation and we are members of the kingdom of God, you know? Okay. Yeah. Uh, give to God Caesar what Caesars give to God what's God's okay. Um, but that's not how Jesus is original listeners. Would've understood it. They would've realized that when Jesus is saying everything belongs to God and throughout the new Testament in the early, uh, church, we see this understanding of this passage, you know, saying, um, we must obey God rather than man. Speaker 2 00:53:22 Um but it, it wasn't until later, um, Justin martyr actually was the first to, to read it in a way that that kind of splits it in two. And, and that makes sense because he wasn't a Jew. He was raised learning Socrates and Aristotle, and this idea of, um, the sacred and the physical are two separate spheres that do not interact. And so that's how he read it. You know, I don't question his faith AF um, but he said, uh, he wrote his in his apology to a, uh, one of the emperors. He said, once to God, we render our worship, but in everything else, we gladly serve you. And it was in reference to this passage, you just quoted this passage. And so over time, what that came to mean was God got relegated to being supervisor of spiritual affairs and Caesars becoming increasingly bold and demanding more from us to the point where ultimately it came to mean, um, that the most esteemed form of service to Cesar was a willingness to fight on his behalf. Speaker 0 00:54:25 Yeah. That whole section was crazy. <laugh> um, yeah, but, but it did, it did help, like, like I said, I love the context that you fill out that you fill in. Yeah. Um, in these spaces because, uh, you know, Justin martyr and then going on a Luther and then, you know, kind of coming to where we've, we've tended to land today, it does make a difference how we hear it through our cultural ears versus how, um, Jesus followers and the temple on that day would have heard it and the earliest church, um, yeah. You know, would've heard it as well. So, um, thanks for giving us that, that little bit, that was, that was like, that was for me. Um, but, um, but take us to Friday. I mean, I know we said that, but this is, this is a short conversation on a really rich book. Uh, but, but take us to Friday because you bring us kind of full circle coming back to Palm Sunday with, um, some of the similar imagery from that and how Jesus continues to debunk that, um, in his death and as he, and as he goes from triumphal injury into his death. So I, so I don't, whatever you wanna share on Friday is, is great. It was my favorite chapter. So I'm gonna love anything you say about it. <laugh> Speaker 2 00:55:41 Well, um, well, I start by telling a story actually from my very first class, I took seminary. We both, uh, fuller seminary. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so, um, I made the mistake of taking a systematic theology class, uh, for my first class. I don't know why I did that Speaker 0 00:55:56 The first quarter. That's crazy. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:55:57 <laugh>. And so, uh, I still remember Dr. Gary deto, um, came, uh, flew down from Chicago for four weekends, right. And, and, uh, we'd do like 16 hours of theology those weekends. And at one point he told a story from his childhood and of going to summer camp. And, you know, my daughter's at summer, uh, church camp right now, up in Kansas. And, and he said, you know, at, at one of the evening services, the, the camp speaker got up and he said, God, the father is like this hammer. And he lifts up this mallet for everyone to see. And he says, and we retched sinners are like this dirty drinking glass, fragile and full of dirt, you know, and he puts it on this table in front of him. And then he starts to lift the hammer up and he says, and because God is holy in his wrath, he cannot look upon our sin and must punish it for us. Speaker 2 00:56:50 And so he starts to bring the hammer down upon the glass, you know, and all the kids are, are scared thinking these glass jars are gonna fly everywhere. And, and at the last possible second, he kind of, uh, moves the hammer. So it misses the glass. And, and so he continues and says, um, but thankfully Jesus is like this bucket. And he pulls out his last prop, this metal bucket from under the table. And he turns it upside down and puts it over top of the glass. And he says, Jesus is our protective shield to take God's wrath upon himself. And so in this dramatic conclusion, he just starts puling this bucket, which you know, is loud playing sound throughout the, the, the sanctuary of this camp and saying it and God in his holy wrath whack satisfied his just holiness whack by putting the punishment we deserve whack upon his son whack, you know, and I still remember Gary DEO saying afterwards, you know, um, uh, you know, setting aside whether this was theologically accurate, it was definitely an effective evangelism demonstration because it literally scared the hell out of everyone. Speaker 2 00:58:02 I mean, talk about bringing a dead audience to life. And so he, and all the other kids just flooded to the front to be saved. And, um, but what I ask in the book is since when is the gospel message cling to Jesus, so he can save you from God. And, and so, you know, a quote from, uh, Brian Zand, a pastor and author that just stuck with me throughout writing this whole book. But especially as I worked on the Friday chapter, I've heard him say a few times when it comes to the cross, let's readily confess it, but never glibly explain it. Um, you know, it's, it's interesting. Um, if Jesus only came to die for our sins, which I think was crucial part of his mission, but that's the only thing he came to do. Then according to Luke chapter four, he could have actually incarnated as an adult, spent a few minutes ticking off his hometown, or, you know, some of the Jewish leaders and been thrown over a cliff and died because in Luke chapter four, his first recorded sermon, his inaugural address, where he takes the scroll of Isaiah. Speaker 2 00:59:10 He he's just returned from the desert and, uh, where he was tempted by the devil, right, to become the kind of Messiah everyone wanted him to be. So then he goes back to his hometown to set the record straight, takes the scroll of Isaiah finds, where it's written, the spirit of the Lord is upon me to bring good news. And he lists these four marginalized groups. And I think everyone in his hometown was thinking, he's talking about us. You know, uh, this is really good news for us. Well, I mean, it's bad news for the Romans, but that just makes it even better news for us. And they says that they love it. According to Luke chapter four, they all speak well of him. It says they cut him off. Actually he couldn't even finish what he was gonna say, but when he finally gets to speak again, he, he says, you know, basically to summarize it, he says, look, you think I've come to bring good news just for you, but it's for everyone. Speaker 2 00:59:56 And so he gives two examples of, of probably the most nationalistic of the Hebrew, prophet, Elijah and Elijah. And he takes pretty much the only instances of them showing mercy to outsiders, helping a foreign widow and Elijah helping the leader of an enemy nation's army name in the Syrian. And when they hear that they're furious and they get up and it says they drag him out of the town and they try to throw him over a cliff, but he walks through the midst of them miraculously and goes on his way. And so in, in the book before we really get into the meat of Friday's content, I just say, this would've been a beautiful way to die. If Jesus, uh, sole mission was to save us from our sins. I mean, think about it. I, you know, the day of atonement, the priest would confess all the sins of Israel onto the scapegoat, and then they'd lead it out into the barren wilderness to die. Speaker 2 01:00:50 But on more than one occasion that pesky goat would come back into the town, you know, and I just fix your kids laughing, you know, our sins, every returned. And so they came up with a new tradition where the priest would actually take the goat outside of the town and throw it over a cliff to make sure it couldn't come back. So, you know, if Jesus only wanted to die for our sins, mission accomplished in 10 minutes, come incarnate as an adult tick off the town of Nazareth, get tossed over a cliff. And he'd forever be remembered as this perfect scapegoat who took our sins upon himself and died in our place. But there was more to Jesus' mission. You know, it says that Jesus was the way the truth and the life he came, not only to give us life, but to show us how to live it, to reveal the way right. Speaker 2 01:01:37 And to, uh, correct our misguided assumptions about the giver of life, to reveal the truth about God. And those two other aspects of his mission could not be accomplished in 10 minutes. It took years of living among us, teaching us how to, uh, what it means to live as a child of God and correcting our mistaken beliefs about his heavenly father. Um, so knowing that we then look, uh, at Friday's content and, and maybe just to only bring up two pieces from that day, I, I think it's crucial that we understand what's going on when pilot offers to the, the crowd. Do you want me to release paras or Jesus it's mentioned in all four gospels. So this important, and you can't understand the significance of this choice unless you understand why Barass had been in jail and what the significance of his name is. Speaker 2 01:02:30 So the more than one gospel tells us that Barass had been imprisoned because he killed someone in a past insurrection attempt, most likely a Roman soldier or a Jewish sympathizer. In other words, he had proven his willingness to fight for Israel's liberation. He may be a failed liberation, uh, liberation, but at least he was willing to fight. And his name is also significant bar ABA. It means son of the father and Matthew's gospel actually gives us his first name, Jesus Barra, Jesus son of the father. In other words, we're supposed to see this choice as the choice between two competing messiahs, which Messiah will you choose? Which Messiah do you think God has anointed? The one who's willing to fight on our behalf for our freedom. We're the one who's not willing to kill, but is being, is willing to be killed. Uh, and, um, you know, we know who the crowd chose and I think in their choice, we're meant to see ourselves. Speaker 2 01:03:32 So in other words, to go all the way back to Palm Sunday, when we realized that Jesus was not the hammer of God, that he would not pick up the hammer and bring it down upon our enemies, we picked up the hammer and we crucified Jesus. And what I find amazing is Jesus' dying words could not be more different than the dying words that sparked the Maccabi and revolt all those years ago. Uh, it's been, you know, 30 minutes ago, but Matt athe, uh, I remember his dying words to his son's Ave, the wrong done to your people pay back these Gentiles in full, but what does Jesus say? His dying words, the first, the words out of his mouth, when he put nails through his wrists, father, forgive them for, they know not what they do. Um, and you know, I think at the time everyone thought that was the end, another failed Messiah. Um, but the uncanny thing about forgiveness is that it has this strange ability to create a future when none seemed possible. Speaker 0 01:04:34 Yeah. Amen. That's, that's wonderful. Um, uh, you know, as I mentioned learning all those years ago about the lamb coming into Jerusalem on Passover and, um, we were, had been studying the feasts and, um, and so this Friday chapter, um, not saying by any stretch of the imagination, I have some sort of answer, but it gave me some more questions. Hmm. Uh, and, and because I had thought about this too, like, why Passover? Why not Yom? Kipur why not the day of till, right. This makes sense. This is the one that makes sense, because especially with my upbringing on all the focus on sin, and as you're talking about the, the wrath and all of this stuff, like this one made the most sense, but as you were talking about it again, and, and it didn't come up when I was reading it, but as you were, as you were communicating it just now I started thinking, I was just noticing, so I'm, I'm maybe raising more questions for myself or maybe for others to ponder as well. Speaker 0 01:05:31 But the interesting thing to me about the difference between the traditional celebrations of Yom Kippur and Passover is that in Yom Kippur, it really is one person who gets to, to celebrate this, right. It's the high priest goes in. It's one dude, essentially, right? It's a priestly crew, but it's one dude who gets to do all of this for Yom Kippur. And, and as you said, the people are aware of what's happening, but the participation is relatively limited. I would say, especially when you compare it to Passover, when you compare it to the first Passover, but when you compare it to Passover, traditionally celebrated where this is a real communal activity. And, and, and it's participatory, right? Uh, at the beginning when Moses is leaving the people out, it's very participatory, right? Because they're having to get everything ready to go and hide out in their homes and pack everything up and make the food and get everything ready for liberation. Speaker 0 01:06:26 Right. I think that was the thing that stood out to me in, in the book when you're talking about this is there is this, this, this, uh, day of atonement aspect to what Jesus did no doubt. And we can't explain it as Z said, as Z says, but, um, but there, but he chose Passover, which is a deliberative PA, which is a, a, a Liber holiday, like we've talked about, but it's also a participatory holiday for Israel. And, and one of the things that I love about the original, um, Passover is that it's not, it is for Israel, but it's also for whoever would come into the households on that night, right. The mixed multitudes that left with Israel. So whoever attached themselves to the people, to Israel's God also got to participate in, in that as well. And so it just, it just makes me start to have all of these thoughts about, um, the crucifixion and the resurrection and the political implications, not, not meaning partisan implications, but the, the kingdom implications, um, of what that means that Jesus came and in and chose, as you say, instead of which would've been pretty convenient. Speaker 0 01:07:34 <laugh>, mm-hmm <affirmative> to have this Yom Kippur style incarnation and death and resurrection, but chose instead, uh, the Passover wrap. Speaker 2 01:07:44 Yeah. I had never thought about that before Alexis. That's really great. Um, I mean, I had, you know, in the book, I talk about how Passovers about liberation, you know, mm-hmm, <affirmative> the day of atonement, young incur is about forgiveness, not to say that forgiveness, isn't an aspect of God's liberating work. I just talked about Jesus' first words on the cross. Um, but I think, uh, that forgiveness is meant to be understood in the, in the, the larger mm-hmm <affirmative> aspect of his liberating work. Right. Um, you know, I think Jesus came to restore and make right, all that was damaged and made wrong by the fall, by our fall. And that involved more than just giving us life, like, I already talked about involved showing us how to live and just liberating, you know, Jesus or God, when he liberates, um, the people of Israel from Egypt, it still took another 40 years to liberate them from their mistaken beliefs about how to live and, and about God. Right. Um, and that's the same for us. Um, but I had never thought before about the participatory aspect. Uh, that's a great insight. So Speaker 0 01:08:44 Yeah, I hadn't thought about it either until I was literally just listening to <laugh> <laugh> so I really wanted, I wanted to throw that out there. Just kind of ask some food for thought, but I wanna give you, um, the last word and maybe your last word as an aspiring peacemaker, what would you, what would you tell us for people who may be being introduced to these acts of Jesus in this last week, in a new way, or in a fresh way, or for the first time thinking about them as peacemaking acts? What, how might you, um, encourage us to also be aspiring peacemakers? Speaker 2 01:09:20 Yeah. Well, regardless of whether your listeners, you know, ever pick up the book or not just take that idea, that what if the main thing Jesus was doing throughout his final week was that he was contending for a piece and seeking to correct the mistaken, uh, notions we had for how to go out making and maintaining peace. And when you then start to read in the gospels, it it's actually about a third of the gospels cover his last week. Um, uh, a lot of scholars speak of Mark's gospel has, uh, commentary on holy week with an extended introduction. <laugh>, um, you know, there's all this immediately, immediately, uh, in the first half, like it's in a rush to get to Jesus' final week. Um, and so there's a lot of events, uh, from that week that we don't normally put into that week when we discuss them, right. Speaker 2 01:10:05 Even like the, is it right to pay the tax question? You don't normally realize, oh, that's Tuesday, whenever you come across those passages, just ask yourself, what can I learn from this event about how Jesus makes peace and how he calls us to be practitioners of how he, uh, of, of his approach to peace making, you know, um, it's fascinating to me that the only people Jesus ever referred to as children of God were peacemaker and those who love their enemies. Um, and I'm not, I don't think that's so much a commentary on what it means to on who saved, but rather to say, when you love your enemies and seek to make peace as Jesus did, there's nothing that looks more like your father in heaven. You'll be the spit in image of your heavenly father. You're like a, a child of God. Right. Speaker 2 01:10:49 Um, and then just to say, you know, you talked about, um, the participatory aspect of Passover and we, we didn't get to it, but on, on Sunday, Easter Sunday, resurrection, Sunday, Jesus basically commissions his community to continue this peace making mission. And, um, that's what the early church really understood the resurrection to mean, you know, there's oh, I forget who said it. I wanna say it's Tertullian, uh, said, um, we, the church are the people who seek to cultivate now the future promise to us by the crucified one. And that's, I think what we're called to do this, this shaone that we know will one day come and it's full consummation. We get to, as the community of God seek to cultivate on a small scale. Now the kind of piece we hope to see on a grand scale. And that's, that would be my encouragement for your listeners. Find a few others and begin to try to live out together, this piece, teaching of Jesus and invite others into it. Speaker 0 01:11:50 Jason, that is so beautiful. I'm gonna, I'm gonna carry that with me. The, the spit image of the father. I love that. Um, again, the book is fight like Jesus, how Jesus waged peace throughout holy week. And I will put the link to, um, get your hands on a copy in the show notes. Thank you so much, Jason. Speaker 2 01:12:11 Thank you. Speaker 0 01:12:13 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth BTI. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit us at that. Makes total sense.com.