Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:06 Welcome to That Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis bti, a Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice. But the how sometimes eludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another, to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Hey, everybody. I'm here today with Sarah Cassada. She has written a beautiful book that I just finished earlier on my bed, drinking a cup of coffee and eating a granola bar, um, called Love Undocumented Risking Trust in a Fearful World. Hi, Sarah. Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2 00:01:03 Absolutely. It's so nice to be here. Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 00:01:07 Oh my goodness. So first I just wanna start by saying I love a good memoir, and I know this isn't all inclusive of your whole, of your whole story, but it reads a lot like a, like a hearty section of a memoir, and this book is first and foremost a love story, right?
Speaker 2 00:01:27 Absolutely. That's definitely the, the framework and the thread that holds the book together. Um, you know, I actually, when I was writing it, I, I was in, I was about halfway through chapter two, and I said to my editor, I just realized this is a book about immigration <laugh>, which was a little disturbing to her. I think that I, I didn't seem to know what the book was about, but for me it was always rooted in relationship and how our relationships across different life experiences, different cultures, different language, different boundaries that society has in place, how those change us, how those help us see the world differently, how those relationships show us more of who God is and how God is moving in the world. Um, so yes, the book is at its heart really about the relationship, but through that and because of our immigration experience, the book is also about immigration and, and things that are happening in the world today. And for me personally, um, I actually had my master's degree in sociology. And so being able to marry that memoir with kind of how does our story fit into the bigger story of what's happening around us was really, uh, an exciting part of the writing process for me.
Speaker 1 00:02:41 Oh my goodness. That is, that is so well said. I think this has been, you know, it's been years in the making for me, but, um, I I, I'd probably been, I had probably been seeing my therapist regularly for like several months, so this is probably like five, um, almost six years ago. And I came home one day and I told my husband, can you believe my, my therapist thinks I operate, like I'm self-sufficient, right? And he just busts out laughing, and he's kind of like, you need to pay her how much for you, you know, to tell you that <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:03:12 But,
Speaker 1 00:03:12 You know, but the point is, and I told my best friend, she said the same thing. But the point is that I think there are, there are a few of us out there who kind of go along life and we're Christians, we trust God, but we just don't really live into how important relationships are in our lives, right? It's kind of this like, I can do it. I'm pull myself up by my bootstraps, or I don't need you, or, you know, whatever it is, when that's just a lie. <laugh>,
Speaker 2 00:03:39 <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:03:39 It's just a lie. You know, we, we all need each other. God designed us to be relational and, um, and to, and to live into these relationships. And I love how you, you know, kind of weaved that with, with your story, with, with your husband and the greater, like, kind of bigger story that's happening around you. Um, so we'll say that this is a love story between you and your husband, Billy, who you met in la. Um, and I definitely, I can't wait to dig into that part, but I mentioned before we started recording, I think if my calendar is right, this is gonna air just before Christmas. And so, you know, we've already said husbands, so spoiler alert Sarah, Mary's Billy. So don't let that <laugh> hear you from reading the book. It's, it's great. Um, but I'm wondering if we could start maybe with this really vibrant scene you, you included in the book of you and Billy being at the border in Tijuana, Mexico. Um, you talk about Las Posadas, which is a beautiful Christmas tradition, and, um, about some filmmakers that you met when you're there. So can you just, can you take that away for us?
Speaker 2 00:04:54 Yeah, absolutely. So, um, it was one of the first times I had ever had the opportunity to be at the border itself. And actually it wasn't the first time because I, um, part of my work at that time was with, um, college students and we always, um, as part of our curriculum and studying immigration would go to Tijuana. But it was, we were there with, um, I was there with Billy, and it was our first time together in that space. And I remember there's very few places at the border where you can kind of interact on both sides. Um, there's a lot, you know, the Rio, the, the Rio Grande is, is the border in a lot of parts, <laugh> of our southern border. So there's a river in different things, but this is a place where, um, it's called Friendship Park, where it was this idea of kind of being able to connect on both, both sides of the border, and it goes right into the Pacific Ocean, so where the border wall actually extends out into the ocean, and, um, we're kind of there checking it out.
Speaker 2 00:05:58 And, and I feel like, and even in my experiences at the border since then, it's a very, um, sacred place. It's a complicated physical place to be in, you know, especially as you're there at the beach, there's an element of tourism to it, but there's also, it's a wall and it's a wall with a lot of meaning and a lot of history and a lot of pain connected to it. And even along the wall, particularly on the Mexican side, there's lots of murals and, um, crosses in memory of people who died in their trek north. And, um, but in this particular place where we were, it was pretty deserted that particular day we were there, and as we're, um, kind of hanging out there, we start to see families arriving on the US side and also people showing up on the Mexican side where we were.
Speaker 2 00:06:51 And I will never forget, there was a, a couple who, there was a, a woman on the Mexican side of the border who sat down and like pulls out a camping chair and sits down by the border, and there's a man on the US side also sitting in his camping chair, and they're kind of like squeezing styrofoam cups of coffee through the slats in the fence. And, um, you know, I just had this realization just in watching them that this was their family. That this was their, they were regulars to this space. This was not <laugh> a tourist stop for them. This was their moment to connect as a couple and as a family. And, um, having been through that season in our family of knowing separation was always, uh, in the back of your mind as a possibility, something that you try not to think about, but you know that your family can be separated if, if something goes wrong, um, and by something going wrong.
Speaker 2 00:07:51 I mean, being pulled over for speeding <laugh> or, or, you know, telling the wrong person your story. Um, all those kinds of things. So we were actually just about to leave, um, and when all of a sudden this truck pulls in with some, all these guys and lots of video equipment, <laugh>, so I'm immediately like, oh, wait, we have to stay and see what's going on here. And, um, and it was actually the filmmakers who told us that they had, they were doing a documentary, they were German filmmakers doing a documentary about the border wall between the US and Mexico, and how it compared to their own country's history of having a wall. And, you know, he even said to us, this documentary will never be shown in the us. Um, you know, I personally, I don't know if it was ever shown anywhere <laugh>, but they seemed to be, you know, they had their plans, but he said, but in Germany we don't understand when we had a wall in our country, it's because we were enemies.
Speaker 2 00:08:48 But you, United States and Mexico are said to be friends and allies, and it is very hard for us to understand the presence of this wall. Um, and so it was actually the filmmakers who told us that that couple was there every single week and that yes, they were married. And I just, um, you know, it was so personal for me that I, it was, I felt like I couldn't hardly even stay in that place. Um, but we watched literally families introducing babies through the fence to other family members in the us and, um, it's just a heavy, heavy place. And kind of to your question about s which is a tradition in Latin America, sometimes of almost, um, sort of similar to Christmas caroling, it's related to the holiday, and it's essentially a group of people will, um, sort of reenact the idea of Mary and Joseph going door to door, asking for a place to stay.
Speaker 2 00:09:47 And, um, and every, every time they go <laugh> door to door that people say, no, you can't stay here until eventually they get to the last house and there's, um, a party. And they do different types of things, particularly at this spot in Friendship Park, um, on the westernmost part of the US Mexico border, where they do Las at the border, where, um, folks on the Mexican side will ask to come in and those on the US side will say, no, you can't. And then they eventually see yes, and they throw candy over the fence and there's kind of a, um, a party, but it's a party with that's, um, has activist roots and meaning behind it as they want to, um, connect the story of welcoming the stranger hospitality, um, and the ways that we welcome Christ in our lives and world <laugh>. So, um, it's a, it's definitely a very unique place in our country, and one that people talk about a lot. I mean, there is a lot of conversation, you know, especially in the last couple years about what's happening at the border. And so, um, it is, it is a very special place for sure.
Speaker 1 00:11:00 Yeah. And when you said introducing babies across the wall, you know, I'm like, this is, this is Jesus, right? <laugh>, I'm like, he is, he is. He's coming. There's nowhere for him to be born, um, even until someone opens their door. And then, um, and then we see Marion Joseph with their lives at risk, like many people seeking asylum if they're not from Mexico, coming up from Latin America through trying to get through that very wall, um, seeking asylum for their lives just like Jesus and Maram Joseph did when they, you know, when they went to Egypt. And I just think that you're, you're right when you started that answer of just saying it's a very, like profound and complex physical space mm-hmm. <affirmative> right. To be, um, at that border. Um, well, earlier before we started recording, we talked about a few resources we, we might mention, I'll go ahead and mention welcoming the Stranger, um, by Matt Sorens and Jenny Yang because, um, that was one of the places where I had first kind of encountered that concept that, that I thought, wow, this is, this is Right, which is the US has been in a place historically where we are in the business of tearing down walls, right? <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:12:14 Mm-hmm. We were trying to rip down the iron curtain. We were trying to tear down, you know, this, this wall that even these Germans talked about of their, of their enemies, um, their enemies on either side. And we've always symbolically been in the business of tearing those down. And yet we have the longest border wall, as far as I know in the, in the world. Mm-hmm. Um, between us and, um, and Mexico with the largest, um, income differentiation on, you know, yeah. Either side the large largest, um, economic, um, distance on either side. And so, yeah. So it really makes you, it really does make you pause and say, we're friends. Why, what are we doing here? Kind of what, what, why are we treating one another this way? But anyway, thank you for kind of indulging me. But I love that. Um, I love that tradition ever since I heard of that tradition.
Speaker 1 00:13:01 I just, I just love that. Um, so you were with Billy in Mexico, but for much of your relationship that wasn't really a possibility <laugh> for true him to travel, um, outside of the United States because of his immigration status. So Sarah, I'm just gonna let you take us wherever you wanna take us, um, with your, with your story, your love story with him, because we, because we know that it's, that it's not ended yet, but it had a happy resolve in that way. Um, but there were lots of parts of your relationship where that was really uncertain, so Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:13:42 Absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:13:43 Yeah. So just tell us what you wanna, what you wanna tell us about that. People can grab the copy of the book and I hope they do, because it goes into it in much more detail and we'll have time for it here. But, um, you know, just whatever's on your heart that you wanna share with us.
Speaker 2 00:13:56 Yeah. You know, it's, we talked about this briefly before recording, but my kind of background, if you will, around anything related to immigration was pretty much zero. Um, I actually didn't even, trying to remember if this is true. Yes. I did not even have a passport when I met Billy, or I had just gotten it within like a month of speaking to him, I think, um, unrelatedly, but I had not really traveled outside the country. I think I had been to, um, Canada for a day as a camp counselor, and I had gone to Mexico for lunch one time with some girlfriends and all of that at that time you could do with a driver's license. So I had never, um, you know, the, my, the idea of living or being or traveling in a different country was very foreign to me. And, um, at the same time, the idea of people coming to the, the United States, um, was something I just hadn't spent much time thinking about.
Speaker 2 00:14:56 I, I knew a couple of people just through church and life and stuff growing up in the south. Um, I knew a few people from other places, but it wasn't something that was ever really talked about in that I can remember in my circles. Um, especially kind of from a political standpoint. Um, in fact, when I was moving to LA I did so for a job and in the job interview they asked me sort of my thoughts on immigration. So cuz I'm, I'm interviewing for a job in Los Angeles where immigration is definitely a topic of conversation. I would be working with immigrant families and they asked me, and I am like in my apartment in Kentucky, um, where I was going to grad school and I just kind of responded like, uh, you know, I think as Christians we should welcome people and also people should follow the law.
Speaker 2 00:15:49 And like, that was my response. Like what I think about immigration <laugh>, right? Yeah. And, and I had nothing to really back up either of those. Like I assumed, you know, Christians should be kind that felt like, you know, a safe answer. <laugh> and following the law seemed like a good answer as well. Yeah. And so when I moved to LA and I started working with immigrant families, a lot of the complexities were being, um, you know, my eyes were being opened a little bit, but it was still not something I was really diving into. And so when I met Billy, we actually met at our church in LA and it was like our third date. And Billy is originally from Guatemala. And, and that was actually how he originally connected cuz I had just gotten my fancy new passport and I was going to Guatemala for the summer because part of my job, they wanted me to work on my Spanish, which didn't, I still need to work on my Spanish, but <laugh> that didn't work out.
Speaker 2 00:16:47 But I had, I had plans to go to Guatemala. So when I met him he was like, you know, giving me all the places and things to do and go and, and we started dating and it was about on our third date, he tells me this long circuitous story that, um, I could not understand or follow what he was talking about. I look back now and I absolutely know he was trying to tell me without telling me, but I was not in a place where I even knew enough that you could tell me without telling me, I just need you to tell me <laugh> what is going on. And eventually he kind of explains that, um, he had come to the US and with a valid US travel visa and it had since expired. And so he was still living and working in the US but his visa had expired and, you know, and so there was sort of, again, a little bit of unclarity on my part of what exactly that means, but this essentially this idea that he was undocumented and for all intents and purposes, and my thought in my brain at that time was, well, if this relationship goes anywhere, I hope he gets that worked out because I genuinely believed that immigration was straightforward and clear and accessible to people.
Speaker 2 00:18:10 Um, you know, I had a dad who, when I moved to LA he's like, you have 30 days. Have you changed your driver's license? Have you updated your, you have 30 days to update your driver's license <laugh>? And I'm like, okay, so I'm on this, you know, I've gotta go and update my driver's license. And I thought immigration was similar. Like, he needs to take a lunch break, go to some sort of government office, it's going to be a pain, but it is doable and it is something that he can do. And that's that. And I will say, actually in 2019, our, our family lived in Guatemala for about six months, I think. And that kind of was the process. Our visas were about to overstay. Um, my children were about to, to do exactly what our family had gone through in the states we were gonna overstay in Guatemala.
Speaker 2 00:18:55 And so we did, we went to a government office, we paid a fee, we told them we wanted to stay longer, they updated it and all of that was fine. Um, what I didn't know at that time is that was not an option to Billy. What we, what we experienced in Guatemala was not an option to him in the United States. He couldn't go somewhere and say, Hey, I'm still here and I'm gonna be here a little while longer. Can we update this? That was not an option. And then therefore, now that his visa had expired, it was really not an option <laugh>. And so, um, it was something that for me, I just thought, if this relationship goes anywhere, I hope he gets it worked out. And that to me was kind of the end of that chapter. Thank you for sharing. Have a nice night <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:19:37 Um, it was, it would be a couple more months before he kind of had to say to me straight up, there is no way for me to fix this. There is no line to get into. There is no form to fill out. Um, and in fact, he, because of his particular situation, he, you know, he said the only way for me to fix this is to marry a US citizen. And then he promptly broke up with me in the exact same conversation, <laugh>, and you have, again, I am so behind, like I, I am so behind trying to understand what's going on here that I'm like, wait, you have to Mary, you wait, you just broke up with me. What is happening? <laugh>, what are we talking
Speaker 1 00:20:18 About? Can I pause you there, Sarah? Because I'm, I mean, because I know like we're laughing on it at this end now, you know, but, but I think I wanna just kinda reinforce what you just said about, because I actually, I thought that part of the book, when you say that like, well, it's just kinda like the same as like, you know, you're renewing your driver's license, you just go, you just go down to the DMV and you just get it done. Right. And I, you know, I kind of giggled at that, you know, knowing the little bit more that I know now, um, because that's really not the way it works, you know, and I think so much, um, so many times in the church, I will say we, in our naivety, I have heard things like, well, it's pretty simple. You just follow the law. Right,
Speaker 2 00:21:02 Exactly.
Speaker 1 00:21:03 And I think the heart behind that, there's nothing wrong with the heart behind that, right? Like, we're not all trying to go out and speed, right? Cuz we wanna be safe and we don't wanna get a ticket. And we're, we're not trying to like be behind on our property taxes Right. Or something like that. We, we, we just in general, right? It's, it's your answer in the interview, right? We're gonna welcome people, we're gonna follow the law. It's fine. It's, it's just the way it is. But, um, I think it's really important that we kind of reinforce that, that this immigration system and, and, and I'll I'll say it in the way that I have heard Dr. Salvatierra say it. So she wrote the forward to your book, she's, she's a professor of mine and she says the system is ineffective, illogical, and inhumane. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 1 00:21:49 And if we focus on those first two, just as we were talking about here, like you guys could just go to an office and you just get it figured out. Like you just say, can you please do this? They stamp it, they go, it seems pretty straightforward and it was in your situation, but it feels very dramatic and drastic to say, okay, he overstayed and now we jumped to either he cannot be legal or he has to marry a citizen. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that, that's like, if that were in a movie, you'd be like, that's fake. Right? Like, <laugh>, that's not even real. Like, that doesn't even make sense, right? Like Right. If this were, if this were, you're talking about, you know, laws in another country, something like how could anything like that even be true? This is not even close mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But it, but that's how illogical and ineffective the laws are as written right now in the books, right? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:22:37 And, and I even, I wanna just kind of clarify that what we were talking about really was a travel visa. We weren't actually even talking about immigration in the sense of like, the
Speaker 1 00:22:47 Fact Sure, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 00:22:48 Came here and built his life. And I think the avenues for that are even smaller. So, um, this idea that, you know, how does somebody who wants to follow the law, like you're talking about, or like, we assume people, you know, how do they wanna come? I mean, the easy way to remember it is blood, sweat, and tears, right? You have a relative blood relation that can apply for you. Sweat is that a employer is sponsoring you, which typically is for very highly skilled, unable to find in the US positions. And then tears, which is our refugee and asylum processes. But for, you know, using Billy and our story as an example, that none of that was really an option. Um, and so there's this idea of people just need to get in line and, and I, I agree with all of that and I, you know, I, a lot of pushback that I hear a lot is like, I don't have any problem with legal immigration.
Speaker 2 00:23:44 It's illegal immigration. I have an issue with, and I completely understand and resonate with that sentiment. But I think what the missing puzzle piece in as we consider that question is we do not have a functioning and logical legal immigration system. And so there's so many places, um, I've heard gin yang say it as like, we need to close the back door, but that means we need to open the front door that you can't, um, you know, that it's not, it's not a, you know, in our hyperbolic world, we love to swing from, you know, massive extremes. And so this idea that, well, if we try to create anything that's more welcoming, that means we're just throwing open the borders and no one's, you know, doing any sort of processing or anything, which is simply not true, but is also like, there has to be this balance of, if we have ways that through our immigration system that allow people to go through the process, then that allows our law enforcement officials to focus on people who are attempting to break the law rather than sorting through, you know, so much of what we see now at the border with asylum seekers, this is a humanitarian crisis that we are addressing with a national security response.
Speaker 2 00:25:06 Yes. And so when you have that kind of mismatch, that inhumanity that you're talking about is inevitable because our law enforcement officials are trained and positioned and there to prevent crime and to catch people who are doing crimes. And so they are treating people within those that toolbox that they've been given. But when you have a humanitarian crisis in the midst of that, without the toolbox and the resources for people to address humanitarian crisis, then it brings this type of mismatch that we see so often happening at the border.
Speaker 1 00:25:44 Yes. That's, that's perfect. That's it. That's a, that helps me even like, compute that a little bit more. I, I wonder if we can do one more quick before we get back to this, back to your st to your love story. Because one of the things that in your book, kind of almost as a case study that like shocked me was the law that existed in the early 19 hundreds, which is not that long ago, right? <laugh>, um, that if a, help me out if a woman who was a US citizen mm-hmm. <affirmative> married a man
Speaker 2 00:26:18 Who
Speaker 1 00:26:18 Is, who is not a US citizen. Yep. Go ahead,
Speaker 2 00:26:20 <laugh>. She would have to give up her citizenship. And so it was the opposite. If a US citizen man married a foreign woman, he did not have to give up his citizenship. But when us citizen women married foreign men, they had to give up their citizenship. And that only changed after women were given the right to vote. And they changed that law. And which just, you know, speaks to our society in general, you know, when we're talking about who is making laws and why there's a lot of self-preservation happening in the, in that law making. And so, which is why we need more people at the table <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:26:59 Right?
Speaker 2 00:27:00 To be able to, to get laws that help, um, preserve us collectively instead of individually.
Speaker 1 00:27:05 Right. But it's just, it kind of pointed to me to like, the, the illogical nature of it goes, goes way, way back. Right? Because I think also in the book you say that not only did he not have to, would the man not have to give up his citizenship, but his wife would automatically become a citizen? Oh yeah. And so it was like the opposite, right? So like mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the, the US citizen wife would have to give up her citizenship, but then if it was a man and he married a foreign woman, she would automatically gain citizenship. And you go, this doesn't even make sense, right? Like, again, this is like, this is, this is an illogical nature of just kind of the system, um, in general. And, um,
Speaker 2 00:27:40 Well, and the ways that it's interacting both with gender, but also, um, with nationality. Because I think even there were specific laws around marrying Chinese nationals that were even separate and more, um, oppressive, you know, ongoing. And so you just see all of those different facets of kind of some of the challenges that we face as society and how they interact with our immigration system and all of these really complicated ways.
Speaker 1 00:28:05 Yeah. Yeah. Oh goodness. Thank you so much. So now I'm like, I've got us completely off track and I've lost, I've lost all count of where we even were in your story <laugh>. So do you remember, or do you, can you pick up a on a good spot, <laugh>?
Speaker 2 00:28:18 Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, for us, I was talking about this idea that he had to marry a citizen Yes. And then broke up with go me. Right? And so, and I, you know, and a lot of that highlights for me at least when I look back on that now, that we were really just two young 20 somethings who were just trying to figure out dating and possible marriage. And then there's this whole added layer of like the US immigration system infiltrating our relationship. And so
Speaker 1 00:28:48 Dating's complicated enough. Do we need that too? It
Speaker 2 00:28:51 Really is. And we didn't, we didn't have to do apps. So I'm grateful
Speaker 1 00:28:54 For that. <laugh>. That's true. I
Speaker 2 00:28:55 Think that's, this is my trade off. But, um, you know, so this idea that I think it really highlights both my, this is a word I can't pronounce, like naivete, I think, um, of just like, I literally don't understand what you're saying to me. Like right, you're saying the only way you can fix this is to marry somebody. And some of that had to do with kind of my faith in the system, right? Like, that can't possibly be true. That makes no sense. Um, but then also for him, the vulnerability of being in that position where you're having to worry that someone is gonna misunderstand your motives or, you know, be suspicious of your motives. And so from his perspective is like, I'd just rather break up than have to navigate that if, if that's what you're thinking or worried about. Um, and so thankfully that breakup lasted about two and a half minutes.
Speaker 2 00:29:45 Cause I was like, that's ridiculous. I don't, let's let's put a pin in that and come, you know, finish this conversation. So, um, you know, but then we kind of walked through this system and so we met with a lawyer, I think right after we got engaged, and he was like, you know, you really can't do anything. I, I thought we could do something. You know, I'd heard of fiance Visas, I think there's a TLC show about this <laugh> like, can we do something there? He's like, no, you absolutely can't do any of that. Um, you know, he's like, there's nothing you can do until you get married. And for me that was a, you know, a small moment, but a, a a milestone moment of like, I don't know which way this might go. Um, you know, do I love this person enough that if we try to do this after we get married and he is not able to get permanent residency here, that we will move to Guatemala?
Speaker 2 00:30:39 And, you know, I think that's, that's really the question all of us are asking when we get married is like, if things go sideways, am I, am I here for the long haul? But I think it was very tangible to me in that moment of what, what the possibilities were of how things could go differently than I had imagined and planned. Um, and in fact, we had a whole drama at the lawyer's office because they, because my wonderful fiance who was just such a 20 something year old guy, had not kept up with all of his paperwork from coming when he came into the us
Speaker 1 00:31:19 And we just said, say like, imagine that, I don't know, a 20 year old guy or you know, who, who's like, yeah, in fact, I have a file cabinet exactly for that. And here's all, you know, like I'm, no, that doesn't, that's not even a thing. Right.
Speaker 2 00:31:32 I know, I know. I mean, I mean, I would love to say, I know, I think I did have a small file box I carried around.
Speaker 1 00:31:37 No, I mean, me too, but I <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:31:40 But I, I also felt like it's not a huge shock or character flaw that this is like absolutely. How you're rolling. And so, um, but yeah, so our lawyer said, you know, while Billy came into the United States legally, which makes your case a little easier than if he had crossed the border without inspection, he's like, that's not the story your paperwork tells. The story your paperwork tells is that he came in legally snuck out of the country and then snuck back in illegal or something crazy like that. It was this whole big mess. And so he is like, so, you know, the unfortunate part of that is you might have to move to Guatemala for 10 years before you'll be allowed to get permanent residence. Which of course, I mean, even now, to me, 10 years sounds like a long time. But I was 26, you know, and I the could not even imagine myself at the ripe old age of 36, you know, finally coming back home.
Speaker 2 00:32:34 And so again, it was just all of these questions. And I think for those of us that are, um, engaging the immigration conversation or any topic really anything that's new to us that we start to feel this curiosity and this passion for, there's always this question of like, what if it gets too hot in the kitchen? <laugh>, right? What, when, what are those, where is that commitment and that solidarity and that willingness to stick with people through these really hard and unjust and inhumane things that people unfortunately are experiencing in our world today? How do we stay in it? How do we connect? And, and for me, that just happened to be marriage <laugh>. Like I don't, you know, that's not everybody's story, but, but it was, I mean, as somebody at that point, I had been involved in kind of justice conversations and, um, different types of, of work along those lines, but this was a different kind of thing of I can't just walk away if it gets too complicated.
Speaker 2 00:33:39 And, um, you know, once I commit, then I'm, then I'm in it to win it <laugh> whatever win it looks like. Um, and so that was a very sort of clarifying moment for me both around, you know, kind of the relationship in general, but also I think for this broader conversation of justice and our faith of like, what is God calling us to and how do we sustain our commitment in those spaces because we live in a very distractable world that something new and shinier and more controversial or more comfortable, you know, whichever way you lean <laugh>, some people wanna go for the next controversial thing. Some people wanna go back to comfort, but what does it mean to, to really invest ourselves in an area that we feel called to and passionate about, and that is personal for us in some kind of way.
Speaker 1 00:34:31 Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, I think that's a really good question. I think that, you know, we talked a little bit, we've, you know, you said you didn't have apps right? With your, with your dating situation. Right. But I think we're just, we're kind of, we're kind of used to the transient nature of social media and things like this, right? It's, it's, it's not Facebook's fault, you know, but we're just kind of used to, we're kind of used to that. Um, you know, I'm, I'm older than the ripe old age of, of 36. And so, you know, it, it's information changes and sitting down and reading a whole book, I'm, I'm learning is kind of like a weird thing to do for, you know, um, in some spaces still. And
Speaker 2 00:35:10 Someone recently told me to stop recommending books that I need to recommend articles and videos. Cause people do not have time to read books.
Speaker 1 00:35:17 <laugh>. Wow. Yeah. But
Speaker 2 00:35:18 I love books <laugh>. No,
Speaker 1 00:35:20 Me too, me too. It's just, it's just some of my, it's just some of my favorite things. But, you know, even that takes commitment, right? Um, and, and looking through this and saying, it takes commitment and it takes time to parse out the nuance, you know? Um, and, and it takes relationship going back to the beginning of mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, to parse out the nuance to really try and understand, um, there was, you know, we were talking, um, I was having a conversation about this topic and we were talking about some of the legislation that came and went and didn't, you know, didn't pass. And, and one of the things that was one of the provisions in the legislation in, in 2013 was for the judges, I forget now what the legal terms they call it, but basically for the judges to be able to make a determination that is not completely black and white with the law just based on like humanity, right?
Speaker 1 00:36:15 You know, we had heard a story about, you know, a family who was headed to their last hearing, and this was gonna be the official everything, and they got hit by a drunk driver. They got into a car accident, right? And so when everything finally came, it was like, no, they were denied their status because they didn't make it to the hearing and according to the law, they had to, you know, that was not acceptable to not be present at that hearing. Um, but that this law would've would've allowed for the provision for the judge to be able to say, look, this is ridiculous <laugh>, you know, this wasn't their fault, let's do this. But, um, but that takes investment, you know, to be able to, to sit like you're saying, and, and, um, and to really move through the conversation, move through the experience mm-hmm. <affirmative> with somebody
Speaker 2 00:37:01 And our immigration system in general. I, you know, I feel like the way it's been legislated has been very, you know, it's like built with a bunch of pieces of duct tape. And so yes, it's like somebody, you know, there's an executive order here and then there's like a law here. But, you know, it's like our, our immigration system has, hasn't been overall overhauled in decades, and our world has changed a lot in the last few decades. And so when you think about, um, you know, even the ways that things like social media and, and access to all that information, how that impacts migration and the things people see and the way information is transmitted, but also just the simple fact of how our labor markets have changed and how our, you know, things that have happened in other countries in the last few decades. There's just all these factors and we've just sort of, kind of had this like, for lack of a better analogy, like treehouse of immigration policy that we just kind of keep adding things to, or taking things down. And at the same time, it's like, no, someone actually needs to like build a house
Speaker 1 00:38:08 <laugh>, right?
Speaker 2 00:38:08 We need some foundation, we need some actual walls and windows, but we just kind of keep putting bandaids in different places. And then that means the political, you know, as political will and political perception shifts from different, whether parties or years or different things, you know, then that means different stuff's being enacted. And so there's just a, um, you know, I always joke the book Immigration Made Easy is over 600 pages long. Yeah. <laugh>. And so, you know, you're, that's what you're working with when you're trying to simplify it. <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:38:39 Yeah. Yeah. It's like the tree house was fun when we're nine, but now we're grownups and we need to like, you know, build a house. But, you know, one of those things, I know it, it's not in your book in particular, but one of the things that, when you mentioned the blood, sweat and tears, you know, us thinking about, um, you know, the Haitians who are at the border right now, and, and, you know, different people have different reasons for f fleeing their country, and this is a, you know, this is, this was not like a, a walk in the park for them to get to where they are at the, at the US Mexican border. But I'm even thinking back in their history just of like, there's no provision for, for climate or natural disaster issues. Right. You know, like, we kind of joke in the US we have, you know, so many different parts and someone's going, I would never live in California, look at all the earthquakes, or, I'm, there's no way I'm gonna Florida.
Speaker 1 00:39:24 Like, you know, my parents live there and there's it's hurricanes all the time. You know, we're tornadoes in Oklahoma, and it's like we, we joke, and it's not that easy obviously to just pick yourself up and move because you don't like, you know, the weather where you live. But there are real concerns for things like that, that are impacting, you know, small islands, right? These communities, these countries where they're going, if I could live inland somewhere, <laugh>, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and, and have a job and be able to, you know, build a house and, you know, things like that. But there's not provision for, that's not one of the lines you can stand in.
Speaker 2 00:39:59 It's not, and it's, and it's an, it's an increasing need. The, even even since Covid has been happening, there has been significant natural disasters in Honduras. And so when you add a pandemic on top of natural disasters, I mean, there's just, you're talking about significant, um, disruption and significant devastation for families. And so then people are trying to figure out their options. And for many people that, you know, one of the most logical options for them is to typically join family who is in the United States.
Speaker 1 00:40:34 Yeah. Yeah. And some of those family lines are long or depending upon the country, where they come from and, and that kind of thing. It's, it's really difficult. Um, so, so let's go back. So you guys are in the office, I think, and there's no such thing as a fiance Visa <laugh>?
Speaker 2 00:40:52 Well, I think there is, but it didn't apply to us Right.
Speaker 1 00:40:55 For
Speaker 2 00:40:55 A reason. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, so we, we'd been given the information about 10 years and, you know, we're kind of, you know, and, and in typical sort of young adult style, we like left the office and we're like, well, I guess we'll go to Six Flags, you know, <laugh>, we just went to an amusement park, like it's all in a Saturday. We had to run some errands and now we're gonna play. Um, and you know, obviously we did decide to get married and we went through that process and there were other things we learned along the way. And it, you know, I won't go into all of that, so you can read the book if you wanna know all of the details of how things play out. But, you know, one of the things that people tend to be most surprised about, um, and actually I just had this conversation with my 10 year old daughter, like this week, um, that my in-laws were not able to come to our wedding.
Speaker 2 00:41:44 And that just tends p I'm always amazed because having kind of walked through all of that, it's like, yeah, there's just not a lot of ways. And, and so, but yet it tends to be very shocking for people when they learn that my mother-in-law, I think in particular applied two or three times for a visa to come to our wedding. And this is not, not coming to work, not coming to live, just coming to see a wedding <laugh> and go back home. Her son, um, yes, her son's wedding and they were denied multiple times. And you know, you're paying every time you're going through that process. And it's, it was emotional and it was heartbreaking for us and for them to eventually make the decision of like, we're not gonna keep applying. Um, we were also, I mean, we were only engaged like, I think 10 weeks, I don't know.
Speaker 2 00:42:30 We got engaged and then we planned a wedding and it just didn't take, didn't take that long, <laugh>. Um, so, you know, some of those decisions were made quickly, but we ultimately decided like, this is not, this is not gonna work out. We, we can't figure, you know, there's, we're meeting all of the requirements on paper, uh, and there are a lot of requirements. You have to often own property in the home country, have a certain amount of money in their bank account, all of these things as indicators that you will be returning. Um, and, but also, you know, just as we're speaking about this not accessible to every family, right? And so Billy comes from a middle class family in Guatemala that was able to say, yes, we own a home and we're coming back and we have a life here that we're not trying to leave.
Speaker 2 00:43:15 But, um, it makes it really, really difficult. And even, even with that, they were not able to come to our wedding. And that was a real, um, significant kind of pain point on that day. Even again, kind of this we're two kids trying to figure out how to get married, and there's sort of this element of, you know, what do we, how, how do we celebrate this while separated from family? And at that point, Billy had not seen his family in, in a couple of years, um, because, because of his immigration status. And so, um, so it was a very joyous, it was a very joyous day when we were eventually able to go and visit. And it's why kind of circling back to where we started this conversation of us being in Mexico, um, that actually I think was the weekend he got his, his what's commonly called a green card, but basically his permanent residence.
Speaker 2 00:44:07 Um, and we were still living in LA and he's like, let's go to Mexico, <laugh>. Like, let's go test it out, <laugh>. And so, you know, it was so much, you know, I think for many of us, you know, and even as someone who didn't grow up traveling or anything outside of the country, it's a different feeling to know you can't, like, there's such a, we have such privilege of freedom, most of us as US citizens, that it's hard to really imagine what it feels like to be told, like, you have to stay in this space. Um, you know, and so there was something really special about being able to go and go and test it out, <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:44:45 Absolutely. Yeah. So talking about the border, you mentioned before you had just, you've just been there again with, um, an organization that you're a part of. So is there anything about that trip that you wanna share since that's kind of fresh on your mind and fresh on your heart?
Speaker 2 00:45:03 Yeah, you know, um, one thing that has definitely changed or grown in the time since when I wrote, when I was writing the book, but especially between our story, when we were going through all of our family's story, there was a lot of different, it was a different season in the immigration conversation, and even I would say in what was happening at the quarter and in the last few years in particular, the rise of asylum seekers at the border has, um, it's almost surprising to me now when I look back at Love undocumented and I realize like I barely talk about asylum seekers because it just wasn't part of, um, the national narrative in the way that it is today. And I think that has been, um, one of the reasons why I think so many more people are curious about this conversation because it's a lot of mixed both messaging and understanding of what is, of what is happening.
Speaker 2 00:46:08 Because asylum seekers are following the law. That is, that is the law. That is the way to claim asylum is to come to the border. You can't, you can't apply for asylum from your home country. You can't, um, do that until you're on US soil or at a port of entry. And so, which gets complicated when someone crosses in between ports of entry, looks for board patrol and claims asylum, you know, that's technically illegal entry, and yet it's, it's sort of not entirely because they were going through this process. So it gets a little confusing. Um, but it has also, because it has been so much going on, particularly in in countries of origin, that that rise in asylum seekers has brought out a lot of new fears among Americans, among US citizens. And it's sort of just created this whole new conversation around that.
Speaker 2 00:47:03 And so, um, when I was there recently, two things that really stand out. One is that I was at a part of the border where the river really is the international land boundary. And so technically the US Mexico border is in the middle of the river, but you can't build a wall in the middle of the river. And so the wall is on the US side because you can't build a wall in someone else's country. And so it's, but it's a few feet back from the river. And so one interesting thing to realize is that people can, even with the presence of the wall, if they go across the river, they're on US soil and can claim asylum having never crossed the border wall because they are on US land. And I think that is, I mean, I'm nerdy enough that I kinda like all those details, but I also think it's really illuminating that when people see, oh, there's a, you know, large group of people claiming asylum on US soil, there's sort of this sense that they must have done something dramatic to get over the wall.
Speaker 2 00:48:10 And oftentimes that is happening on the Mexican side of the US wall, but on US land. Um, and in fact, one area of the border I was on, there's actually a neighborhood that is a US neighborhood on the Mexican side of the US wall. It's between the river and the wall on the Mexican side of the wall, but it is on US land, and it's a US neighborhood, and so they have to have a big opening in the wall so that these residents and can get to their homes. And so you just realize, you know, there's, so, um, you know, I think there're there are definitely places and spaces where it makes sense to have a wall, but there's also a lot of talk about the wall that, again, to use your word illogical, it's not always connected in ways that make sense with actually addressing the challenges that we're trying to address.
Speaker 2 00:49:05 And again, in this case, that is a humanitarian crisis that is at our border and the wall, because people aren't trying to sneak into the country. The wall is, is somewhat on inconsequential in some of those instances because people are on US soil, even while still on the south side of the wall. So that was really, really fascinating to witness and see <laugh>. Um, but what was also interesting and things at the border, and I imagine this will still be true in this airs, um, since the pandemic started in March of 2020, the US has been using a sort of an a little known health statute called Title 42 to essentially close the border. Um, it sort of has this idea that if there's a concern that um, migrants will be bringing in some sort of, uh, disease, that there's a, a reason to shut that down.
Speaker 2 00:50:02 Um, it's complicated if it makes sense to apply in this situation because Covid is already here in the States. Then if you haven't heard <laugh>, so, so there's like a, you know, kind of a question about whether that's really being used in an, in a, in a meaningful way. Um, but it has, you know, meant at certain times over the last almost two years that the border has been completely closed, and even currently the majority of people are being turned away at the border. So even right now we are turning away the majority of people under this Title 42. What that is doing, interestingly, and I'll share this because I think for many of us that are reading headlines or, you know, whatever your kind of news source of choices, um, data can be presented in different ways. One of the things that's happening is because we are immediately turning away, the majority of people, people are trying multiple times because there's not a record being kept necessarily, uh, like there might be at other times of this is this person's second or third attempt, and therefore there's like increasing consequences because we are immediately turning people away.
Speaker 2 00:51:12 People are trying again and again, which means our number have skyrocketed in these interesting ways that look, that appear that there is just a significant amount of people attempting to approach the border. In reality, there are fewer actual individuals than there have been at other times. While some of the numbers are still high because you have that, those repeat, um, numbers being included in that. And so if you look at data specifically, like from the government on these things, they're detailing that out. But that's not always what trickles all the way down when people wanna talk about what's happening in Porter. So what all this to say, while we are still turning away, the majority of people, there have been been exceptions made in 2021 for particularly vulnerable people. Um, this has included unaccompanied children as well as some families with children. And some of that, you know, there's unintended consequences, right?
Speaker 2 00:52:13 If you're turning away entire families and then you say, we're only taking kids who don't have an adult. And if you're a mom living in a very unstable, insecure migrant camp along the border, and you're not sure when you will be able to do anything differently, um, and I think it's, I don't know the stats specifically, but I think it's about 90% of asylum seekers have family members in the United States who have, who are planning to sponsor them. And so this idea that you might send your child up to the port of entry alone so that they can go to that family member, those are really, really difficult choices. We are, um, putting parents in the plate. The parents are finding themselves having to make those really, really difficult decisions. And, you know, over the last couple of years, the story of Moses has taken on a whole new, a whole new meaning for me.
Speaker 2 00:53:10 I remember watching Prince of Egypt with my kids, and when Oved was sending Moses into the river and sings that song, I mean, I'm just openly weeping mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, because we're asking parents to make impossible decisions when parents, you know, with limited exceptions, parents have a natural passionate desire to protect their children. And parents are figuring out ways to protect their children, even if it doesn't always make sense to maybe you or me or someone who's not in, be in those really difficult circumstances that other parents might find themselves in. And so, all this to say, the last time I was at the border when I was actually flying home, I had the unique and unexpected situation where my flight was almost entirely asylum seeking families. Wow. Um, because as those families, those families that are being let in, that are seen as vulnerable and are being let in, they're going to meet kind of like I said, these other family members within the states that have agreed to sponsor them.
Speaker 2 00:54:17 And so, um, it was just a very eye-opening kind of moment for me of, I mean, first of all, just the empathy of watching people try to navigate flights. And in this particular, we all had a layover in Houston, which is a huge airport, and I'm trying to help p you know, help my seat mate find her terminal and ga and I literally have Billy on video chat, like train Well, because I was saying it in Spanish and I thought, I must be saying this wrong because she's not understanding. And um, when I talked to Billy about it later, we talked about, you know, it wasn't that I was saying it wrong, it was that she didn't know airport vocabulary in Spanish. Um, and so when I was saying terminal, she didn't know what a terminal was. And so, you know, he was able to figure it out with her, with his greater command over the Spanish language, <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:55:15 But, you know, this kind of realization of like, this isn't just, you know, I try to put myself in those shoes, right? If I had to flee my home for whatever reason, and I'm in another country, like I have a sense of how, you know, I, I might not know the language, but I know an airport, right? And so even kind of recognizing like the learning curve that she was working with, um, you know, on the airplane they're bringing by the drinks and she asks me, how much does it cost? And I'm like, oh, you can just get a drink, you know? And so I think that moment for me of watching what does it really look like? What does it really look like to uproot your life and your child and try over in a place that is completely unfamiliar to you, down to how much do the drinks cost?
Speaker 2 00:56:04 Um, it was, you know, I just think that just settled in my soul of kind of wa watching what people, people are walking through. And at the same time, it was also a reminder to me that what is happening at the border is not geographically bound to the border. Women and children and families are coming to our communities wherever we may live and are attempting to rebuild their life. And so it's an opportunity for us, whether we live near the border or not, to think about how do I demonstrate welcome? How do I represent Christ in this sphere of influence where I am? How do I able get settled? You know, we're in the holiday time and that is such a lonely, lonely time if you are new to the area. And so what does it mean to invite somebody else into your home and space?
Speaker 2 00:56:58 Um, in our family a few years ago, and some of this we did because we are merging traditions as a bicultural family. Um, but my husband's family, it's very traditional in Guatemala that actually Christmas Eve is the big mission and Christmas Day is, is not quite with the same thing. So we do both <laugh>, so, and so we started a big nu of Buena party on Christmas Eve that we kind of said like, anyone who's in town just come on over, you know? Um, and in Guatemala they do lots of fireworks on Christmas Eve night. So I guess our neighbors are used to the fact that we have started doing fireworks in the street on Christmas. Christmas, do it at midnight in Guatemala, like the moment it's Christmas day, but we do it at like 8:00 PM <laugh>. So, um, but you know, just kind of trying to find these ways where you can incorporate other people into your home and life in ways that fit for your family, I think is, is a way that we can all sort of figure out how do we engage with this on a personal level, not just a political or even a religious kind of, you know, what do I theologically think about this, but what does it mean, what does it mean?
Speaker 2 00:58:08 And to be a good friend to people who have newly arrived in the us
Speaker 1 00:58:12 Thanks for sharing that airport story, Sarah. Um, cuz I, I know in the book, and we, we won't have time to talk about it today, but you do talk about how you wrestled with the tension, um, of this topic, you know, um, of, uh, specifically of the legalities, you know, of, of a lot of it. And, and that airport story, you know, just kind of like, I, my, my mom ness kicks in and I kind of wanted to say, what, you know, what, they're here now, so what are we gonna do? Right? Somebody unexpected comes to the door and they get, you know, dropped off and you're like, okay, I thought you were coming tomorrow. I misread my emails. So here's what we're gonna do, you know, <laugh>, I'm gonna clean the sheets and we're gonna, you know, like you just, you're gonna make it work, right?
Speaker 1 00:58:51 You're gonna welcome, you're gonna welcome and you're gonna make it work. And, um, and so I I'm just so thankful that you shared that story because you're exactly right. This isn't just what's happening at the border. This is in our neighborhoods, in our communities, and we have choices in how we respond, um, to that on a daily basis. So Sarah, thank you for spending this time. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Um, I would ask you for a, if there's anything briefly that you're like, oh, I wish, wish you would've gone there. I wish you would've asked that. I would say feel free, have, you know, take the mic. And then, um, also we already mentioned welcome the Stranger, but if you have any other resources, I I say recommend all the books. Okay. So yeah, <laugh>, I'm not just, I'm not gonna limit you to articles or videos on this <laugh> on this podcast, but, um, you know, I'm a book nerd too, so what all the, all the books, but, um, so if there's anything I didn't ask you that you wanna share and then any resources that you think would be helpful for people entering into this conversation or who wanna dive a bit deeper, we'd appreciate anything you have to share.
Speaker 2 00:59:53 Absolutely. Um, I, yes, welcoming The Stranger is always on my list by Matthew Sorens and Jenny Yang. Um, they do such a great job of just the theological underpinnings as well as like statistics and stories really helping, you know, people of faith have a broad understanding of this topic. Um, similarly, Matthew Sorens has also co-authored a book called Seeking Refuge, which focuses a little more specifically on refugee crisis, um, but can be a good resource as well. Um,
Speaker 1 01:00:24 Is that Steven Bowman Bowman? Is that the other author on that? I may be incorrect, but we'll find it. I'll put it in the notes.
Speaker 2 01:00:33 Yeah, let me look. This is my, yes, you are exactly right. Steven Bowman and, and Isam Smear. I'm probably not pronouncing everyone's names correctly, but, um, yes, that is a good resource. I also, you mentioned you had Karen Gonzalez on the show. Her book is a great resource as well, um, kind of her own personal immigration story as well as connecting it to immigrants in the Bible, which is really beautiful. Um, and the last book I'll share is a little more recent. It's called, um, no Longer Strangers and um, it's actually a collection of, of essays. So each chapter is written by somebody different, but it was edited by Eugene Cho and Samira page, um, and can be a really good resource for folks as well. And I will say non-book relatedly, I do recommend, uh, women of Welcome, so I help, uh, lead in that space on their online community and that we are a partnership with World Relief in the National Immigration Forum and Women of Welcome has so many great resources.
Speaker 2 01:01:38 We just launched this, uh, later this year. Um, our equipping series, which has like, I wanna say 17 videos, responding to common questions about immigration with lots of different folks contributing to that. Jamie Ivy, Shannon Martin Ru, Dr. Russell Moore, um, Matthew Sorens and Jenny Yang are both a part of that as well. So there's lots of great resources there. We have, um, documentary, um, that's like 45 minutes long or can be done in seven parts for a small group called Who is Welcome here, where we follow three evangelical women. Um, on a trip we actually took to Oaxaca, Mexico in southern Mexico, talking about migrants coming up from Central America, headed north towards the United States. So there's lots of great resources there. That's women of welcome.com Awesome. And you can find them on social. Thank you
Speaker 1 01:02:29 As well. Thank you so much. Sarah, where can we find you on social? Do you hang
Speaker 2 01:02:33 On social? Yeah, that's actually, I do mostly on Instagram. So I'm at Sarah Cassada on Instagram and yes, that is the best place to connect with me. Um, and I would love to meet, meet your listeners on, on the apps
Speaker 1 01:02:46 <laugh>. Awesome. Yeah, so if if we're not navigating dating on the apps, then, you know, <laugh>, you and you and I both, we we've been in that space where we, yeah, it was a different, it was a different time back then, but, um, anyway, thank you so much Sarah. This is like, this is so rich. This conversation was so rich. These resources, um, are incredible and I'll list all of them on the notes. Um, I just appreciate you coming on and sharing your story. And I don't always ask people to do this, but if you feel comfortable, would you mind just, um, it can be brief if you want, but would you just pray us out?
Speaker 2 01:03:19 Absolutely. Thanks. I'd be happy to. God, we thank you so much for the ways that you see us in our day-to-day lives, and we thank you for the ways that you see those who are waiting at the border, those who are pursuing their refugee processes, those who are living in the United States without status, those who are dreamers, who are waiting on legislation. God is, it can feel overwhelming to us as individuals, but we rest in the truth that you are God and you are greater than our human laws and fears and questions and all the things, Lord, that you hold these stories in your hands. I pray that you would help each one listening to this podcast that we would explore in our hearts, what you're calling us to in this area. Who are the people that you've placed in our path that you want us to welcome and befriend and demonstrate kindness? And God, I pray for broader movement in our immigration system that would allow for dignity and flourishing and peace and safety for those who are caught in its jaws at the moment. Thank you so much for this time together in the name of Jesus. Amen.
Speaker 1 01:04:47 Thanks Sarah.
Speaker 2 01:04:50 Thank you.
Speaker 1 01:04:52 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth Bus. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also visit us at. That makes total sense.com.
