Episode 177 - Michelle Ferrigno Warren

Speaker 1 00:00:06 Welcome to That Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis bti, a Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice. But the how sometimes eludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another, to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Speaker 2 00:00:42 Okay. So as happens often, Michelle, this happens often where we get to talking, it's talking with my guest, and then realize we should have hit record like 20 minutes ago, <laugh>, because the stuff we've Speaker 3 00:00:54 Been, and it's true, we've already covered some things that are really important. We can recircle back. That's Speaker 2 00:00:58 Right. That's right. We'll do it. So I have, uh, Michelle Regno Warren with me today, and I'm so thrilled, Michelle, I didn't fully admit this to you, but I had a kind of a busy week with school and with church and things like that. And so I worked out last night and I thought, I think I can do it. I think I can read this book on Tuesday morning before we record. And so I got up really early and I went to the coffee shop and I had seconds at coffee and, and I read this entire book and it was amazing. So, wow. Speaker 3 00:01:35 It's called <laugh>. That's impressive. We should just stop and hold that moment. That's great. Getting up ear. That's commitment. There's so much discipline in that <laugh>. Speaker 2 00:01:43 No, it was a, it was a joy. I'm glad this was because I didn't read it when I, it was sent to me and so I had to, and so I had to make it up. But this is called, um, join the resistance step into the good work of Kingdom Justice and like Wow. Um, you cover so much here. Um, I've got, I've got notes upon notes, but I have a feeling just from our, uh, you know, pre-recording conversation that those may go out the windows soon. Um, I wanna start and just kind of say that this may be, I feel like this may be the theme of, of what we talk about, but in your, in, in the forward, um, Latasha Morrison brings out this theme that you have about, it's as important how you show up as it is that you show up. Speaker 2 00:02:35 Yeah. And so I don't need you to necessarily unpack that right now. I just kinda wanna throw that out for us and for the people who are listening, that that is really what I held with me mm-hmm. <affirmative> while I was reading about your story, but also about, um, I mean the Bible passages that you, that you have the examples, the people that you've met, the experiences that you've had, the places where you have been, and how generous you've been to share that and, and how you've shown up. And some, there are a few places where you were like, ah, I could have shown up a little bit differently mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and, and many of them where you went in with this, um, God-given wisdom and wisdom gain from experience into these justice, uh, seeking places and communities. So I just, I just wanna say that I'm grateful for that. And that will be, that's kind of what's been at the, the back of my mind when, when I've been thinking about this conversation. Speaker 3 00:03:28 Very good. Very good. Well, that's great. It's an honor to be here. Thanks so much for reading my book and inviting me to join you for such an important conversation. I just am really grateful. You know, I wrote a book a few years ago called The Power of Proximity and that book and that message was birthed after a couple days of living alongside incredibly resilient communities that were impacted by economic and racial injustice. And as a Christian, as a neighbor, as a friend, as a part of the community family, it just spirals you to ask a lot of questions. And how can we together, you know, change the current reality. If I hadn't been born in different community, maybe I wouldn't have asked the same questions, but the desire for equity and even equity that might give birth to someday an equality was just something that I think we all were dreaming about together. And so the first book really answered the question an answered this statement, you cannot fix a problem you don't understand. Speaker 3 00:04:32 And when we look at injustice in poverty, we have to realize that we cannot fix problems we don't understand. And so for a person like me who is not living out a life that has huge impacts of racial or economic injustice, um, how can I get as close as I can so that I can move from an awareness about this situation to an actual action that is with solidarity? So that was that first one. The second one, join the resistance. The reason it wasn't the power of resistance, which is what the actual original title was, was in response to showing up. How do we show up and how do I communicate that the work that we do on behalf of justice? You know, when we join Christ in his restorative work and this moment in history, we need to understand the collective work that the movement does not begin when we become aware of it, but that it has been going along a long time, and that we need to know who we are and why we're here. Speaker 3 00:05:35 And some of that can be worked out by looking back, looking back to the faithful cloud of witnesses from last week all the way to the beginning of time. And so, as Christians, you know, injustice does not just happen. It doesn't repair itself. And so if we believe that Christ is restoring and repairing all things, how do we join him in that work? And then how do we join the people that God is bringing forth in this moment in time to work together towards alleviating injustice so that we can live at peace, we can live in that shalong, that kingdom of God in context, and that we don't have to be victims of a broken world, but that we can be a part of being repairs of the breach, restorers of the streets, and restorers of dwellings. Speaker 2 00:06:21 Amen. Michelle, I'm so glad that you, that you pointed out that difference, um, and talked about joining in the work. That too was definitely a significant theme throughout the book. And I actually just, I had the same, I have a lot of similar conversations with people who hear the podcast and then they ask the same questions that people ask you, which is, what do I do? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I'm hearing this now, but what do I do? And the first answer that you give that is a major theme here is join the work that someone's already doing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But I'm wondering if you can talk about something that I thought was so powerful was you said, when, when, when we're asked that and, and it comes from a very honest, good Speaker 4 00:07:17 Place. No, this is a good question. Absolutely. That's a great question. Please keep asking, please, <laugh>, how can I join <laugh>? That's right. What should I do? Right. What should Good Speaker 2 00:07:25 Questions. But one of the things that hit me, because I think it, it comes in the feelings that we are experiencing when we ask those questions are complicated. And one thing you said was that one thing we need to do is decenter our guilt. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and our feelings mm-hmm. <affirmative> and center, the people who are being affected mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, and I loved it that you actually went as far, I think as to say center those being affected, not even necessarily the leaders of those Right. Causes. Right, right. Speaker 4 00:08:00 Okay. Um, Speaker 2 00:08:01 But, but the, the part that really I hung on was decentering our guilt and our feelings. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is really tough because those feelings are often the catalyst for us asking what should I do? So can you just like, talk about that a little bit? Like what you've seen in your work, what you've seen among your friends and peers in this space, and, and how are people doing that? Well, maybe, Speaker 4 00:08:28 Yeah. So there's a lot there that I'll try to unpack and you may have to re-ask some elements of those questions cuz there's a lots of really good questions and thoughts even in what you just teed off. Alexis. I think one of the things that keeps re reoccurring in my mind as you were talking is you need to know who you are and why you're here. And, and that's a really important self-reflection because people are going to ask you, why are you here? And if they don't use those words, they're going to show you in passive aggressive ways they're gonna show you in aggressive. I'm like, there's going to be. So you need to know why. Who am I and why I'm here? Knowing that every time you show up, while you'll still be the same person, you'll probably answer that a little bit more differently because you're learning in that process. Speaker 4 00:09:14 So I, I will say that it is not bad there in chapter two, I know what you're referring to is there's a chapter in chapter two. Well first, let me just say this. The book is broken up in three sections. How do you join the resistance? The first section is you serve the movement and everybody has to walk in. And a lot of the reasons I share my own walking in story is because it was not a natural step in with regard to my upbringing. So I wasn't seeing my church leaders walk into this kind of work from my past. I didn't know anybody who was an advocate or faith rooted activist for some of the issues that were impacting my community. So I didn't really have this roadmap of where to go, but I did know that my community was crying out and I wanted to join in that comfort. Speaker 4 00:10:05 And when you are coming from the outside to the inside, you have to be very careful as you go. Not in a fearful way, but in a humble way. And that's why I talk in chapter two, that the bravest steps to the work of doing justice is walking humbly. And I bring out Micah six, eight because on a, on a very initial, why are you marching for George Floyd and I share that because that's probably the most recent huge intersectionality where people who would not be at tables working on police reform and people who were not used to lamenting and burying their families that were black cuz they're not black. And there's just that the whole world kind of intersected and we were all having this alarm discovery. There were different responses for sure, and even different sides of the conversation. But in that intersectionality, you know, some people were saying, well I think this is unjust. Speaker 4 00:10:59 I am marching for the very first time. I know that Micah six eight says that to show, you know, to please the Lord is to do justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly. So this is my step into doing justice and I think that's a good starting point. But the reason I say in the second chapter, there's a problematic piece is, is because we usually don't start with walking humbly. If we were gonna start, and I don't know why Micah started with the due justice, but maybe cuz that was really hard. It's hard and sacrificial and it's gonna cost you a lot. And loving mercy is not, it mercy's a response to a problem. So you see a problem and your responding so much so that you can never be tired of it. You have to love it. And that includes loving, forgiving people who don't agree with you. Speaker 4 00:11:41 You know, that's another merciful response. But the fact that it's at the end with the humbly piece, I'm almost sad that there had to be even a 1, 2, 3. Because I think the presence of who we need to be when we're walking into anything needs to be one of humility. When you see things from the outside, there's a couple responses that you could have. One could be I'm going to fix it. Okay. Again, you cannot fix a problem you don't understand. So please don't be that that's, that's noth that is the farthest thing from Decentering yourself. The second thing could be, well, I'm going to ask, and I'm using George Floyd the black community, what can I do to fix it? Okay. That's again, problematic. They haven't been waiting for your body. Um, I mean waiting for your opinion, your body and your solidarity. Yes. But the third way you know, is, is a little bit more complex. Speaker 4 00:12:28 Like, we want you to come, but you need to figure out who you're, you, you are and why you're here. And if you don't know who you are, I'll tell you, you're walking in and we can see who you are. And if you don't tell us who you are and you haven't figured it out, we will write the story. And so I just share this Alexis with my white skin. And as a white woman, when I walk in, if you don't know who I am, you have written my story. Every side has written my story. Because that's what happens if we don't fill in some of the blanks. And so I'm not saying come and like announce who you are, but I just want people to be reflective. And that's an important part of showing up. And the more humble you show up and the longer you serve the movement, more you know who you are and why you're here. But then people along the way you'll be doing this out of relationship, not being just angry at what you see on social media or the news, but you'll have people that are directly impacted or people that are directly in that community sharing with you by one demonstrating how to show up. And two by, you know, being able to help you get an a clearer idea. Maybe not at the march, that's not a good idea, but the longstanding work should help you figure out why are you here. Speaker 2 00:13:43 Right? I mean that's, that's so good. There are, there are some episodes where I end up taking more notes than I wrote down before <laugh> this, this might end up being one of them. Um, but I think you're right. It's, it is a, it is a process and there has to be a starting place, especially for people who share some of the Christi characteristics about yourself that you just shared. You didn't grow up, um, you know, with this as your background, this isn't, you know, these, uh, communities that you've been serving with aren't the community that that you came from necessarily. And so how do you do that? How do you do that? Well, how do you f how do you figure out who you are, um, inside of that? And, and you know, and then also recognizing that exactly what you, what you closed with. Speaker 2 00:14:32 I don't even know how to, how to talk about that cuz it's real complex. But, but that knowing that we all carry something in our bodies mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, you know, how our bodies look, what we, you know, how we present, um, is is different and it, and people will, we, we all do that, right? We all kind of write that story on someone else before, before we get there. And so to have the confidence, like the self assuredness that God is, is, uh, you're becoming someone in God mm-hmm. <affirmative> and that you are called to this work that we're all called to this work. And then how do we, how do we show up in that way is, are are really important questions. Speaker 4 00:15:17 Yeah. One of the things that I often share is we don't want your sympathy in our community. We want your solidarity. And so please don't show up with your sympathy because what happens, and that sounds terrible, but there's so many tears of guilt from the white community. I feel guilty cuz I have so much, I feel guilty because I'm white. I feel guilty because my kids haven't suffered. I feel guilty cuz I, I mean like, it's just like, I don't wanna hear about that. I, I'm not really that interested, you know? Um, I don't want your sympathy. I don't want your guilt. I need you to deal with that because I need your solidarity. I need it not to be about you. And this isn't, you know, your engagement into what's literally not an option for people in my neighborhood. You know, this isn't something we can opt in and out like, oh yeah, I'm gonna do some justice in the immigrant community here for about three to five years. Speaker 4 00:16:14 And then I'm, you know, peace out. I mean, I want people in here for three to five years, gimme your body, give your money. You're like, that's great, we'd like that, but you know, that's just not a choice for my immigrant neighbors and friends. And so it's really important for you to understand that this is not a performative act. You know, you don't just show up so that you can perform and, and you don't do it to perform to people of color. Like, well, I'm not like other white people. I'm not like other white women. I mean, that's a problem, you know? And it's not so that you can show up so that you can take pictures and like shame your white family and your white friends. Like, well, I'm not like other white people to the white people like you. Terrible. I mean, that, that is, that's what I'm saying when I say decenter yourself, it's not about you Speaker 2 00:16:55 At all. Speaker 4 00:16:58 Not about you at all. And so I will just kind of be an example on this. So if usually it's not unusual, rather, I mean, you have to know the context, but it's not unusual for us to be sitting in a neighborhood room anywhere. Like, I can do this around the country and I walk in and, you know, it's not unusual for me to be the only white person, but even in an all white gathering, you know, I'm, I'm Michelle Warren. Sometimes as I say, I'm Michelle Warrens, sometimes I say I'm Michelle for ignore. It sort of depends on the context. But, but when I introduce myself, this is all I say. I am here because my liberation is bound to the liberation of my immigrant community that says everything that says that she's here to be in the work. That she knows that if there is injustice, that, uh, you know, injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere that she doesn't, she's not here to help us or rescue us. Speaker 4 00:17:50 She's here because she is so bound in her own sense of freedom and liberation to my freedom and my liberation. We are an, we can, we can work together. And that literally comes, I actually spitting out a quote that I learned many, many, many years ago from Lila Watson. And I share a little bit of her story in this very famous quote in the book, in the second section, which is, after you've read how to serve the movement, you stay at the table. And that kind of is that, why are you here? Why are you continuing to be here? I think in the early years I would've said, I'm Michelle Warren, I'm practicing being a good neighbor. And you know what? I can still say that and sometimes I do. Um, but I'm just saying like, that's part of I'm entering in and I'm practicing. I'm learning, I'm serving, I'll do what you want now. Speaker 4 00:18:38 I'm staying at the table. You cannot kick me out. You know, I need to do a better job. Please help me. I will stay. You know, it's almost like the crumbs of the table, you know, where the, the Gentile woman asks Jesus if he will help her. And she's like, where, why? You know, would I help you? You're, you're a gentile. And she's like, can I at least, you know, even the dogs get to eat some of those crumbs so you know, I'm gonna stay here even if I have to just stay under the table and eat the crumbs. I'm so committed to this work. But Lila Watson, who had a lot of people joining her from the outside, she's a activist and an artist and an aborigine and she was really working nonstop, especially around women's rights and, um, women's health in, you know, for the Aborigine people. Speaker 4 00:19:23 And people wanted to be a part of that. And she needed their resources, she needed their solidarity. And so she's known for this very famous quote that she, you know, shared in front of the United Nations, which is, if you've come here to help me, you're wasting your time. But if you've come because your liberation is bound to mine, then let's work together. And that's the kind of staying fortitude that we need is to recognize that I have not walked in as the person who, since the system works for me, I'm now going to save you and try to fit, teach you how to, how to my ways so that you can be a part. No, we're gonna dismantle a system together because it's not okay if me and my family do well, if you and your family don't. And so together we're gonna work and I'm gonna follow your lead and I'm gonna bring my skills. And the longer I'm here, the more skills you'll want. Because that is the truth. I mean, when you and I talk about that towards the end of the book, the only reason you're here as a white person is to really leverage your power with white people. Speaker 2 00:20:27 That is actually where I wanted to go next, but, and so I'll, so I'll give you the choice because when you talked about staying at the table, um, so that, so the, the, the leveraging your power is in, um, the Helping your People section mm-hmm. <affirmative> of the book mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which was fabulous. Um, but when you talked about staying at the, at the table, I, I do kinda wanna pause here for a minute. I said I'd give you the choice, but I'm gonna ask pause here for a minute because Speaker 4 00:20:53 Okay. I'm here with you, Alexis <laugh>, you answer, ask me whatever questions you want. It's all as long as you know, it makes sense, <laugh>, we'll, we'll go for Speaker 2 00:21:01 <laugh>. Well, you know, it's, it's when you know, cuz you, you, you started off by saying like, you're not gonna come in and fix this problem. Right? But if my liberation is bound up in your liberation, then this speaks to just how, like, not just like, oh, what's the season in which we'll stay at the table? Like this table's set, we're just gonna be here. Right. Because somebody's liberation is always going to need to happen. Right? Like, there's always going to be, um, you know, a people group who need to be experiencing freedom. Right. And, and you, I think it's in the same section. I wanna say that it was, I'm gonna say Dr. Salvatierra because she's my professor. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, oh, Speaker 4 00:21:42 Alexia's your professor. I love that. Did you know that she's one of the people I dedicated the book to. Speaker 2 00:21:48 I, you know, I read this and I read it Speaker 4 00:21:49 And I have been friends. We've gotten into a lot of trouble. There's good trouble and then there's trouble. We've gotten into both <laugh>. Speaker 2 00:21:56 Well she's, you, you have a picture with her on your, on your website. Website. Speaker 4 00:22:00 Oh, well she and I, we've done a lot. We've torn up a lot of carpet. She Speaker 2 00:22:03 Is just, she is so incredible and I want to say that it's her story that I'm thinking of from being in the Philippines mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and having this conversation of like how long, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, how long can you, can you share that from Yeah, Alexia, because that, that's really spoke to me about staying at the table. Speaker 4 00:22:22 Well, you know, that spoke to Alexia at a very young age. So if you, so for those of you who may not know the Reverend, Dr. Alexia Salvatierra, she is one of the deans at Fuller of the Latino studies program. I don't know all of the words and probably cuz Alexia and I are friends and we don't usually worry about the letters behind her names and <laugh> the bios. And anyway, we have had a lot of fun together. But she's a professor at Fuller and she has written a couple books, um, faith Rooted Organizing. She and Peter Hetzel wrote it. It's excellent if you have any desire to understand how better to organize advocate, especially as a Christian. She's a deep theologian. And I think she knocks it outta the park in that book. And she also teaches a lot around missiology. But yes, Alexia, before she wrote a book and before, you know, she became some, a very, really well known and famous teacher. Speaker 4 00:23:14 She has a lot of years of, of service and history. And so she often would share it. She and I have taught a lot together in the last 10 plus years, maybe 15, I don't remember how many years. It feels like a lifetime, but it probably has only been 10 to 15 years. But she has often shared this one story that she learn. She had, she walked through in her e early formative years for her. She was in her twenties, but she was in the Philippines. And it was during a time of a national upheaval. I think, you know, there, there was just a time that the gen, the government needed to be pushed back on that their, their, they were not really leaning into the democratic participation that they said, you know, the, the leaders at that time really needed, um, some pushback and it was being pushed back by the people. Speaker 4 00:24:00 But what made that particular revolution so powerful was it was pushed back by the faith community. And she was a young Lutheran pastor during that season, working with other pastors in a multifacet of the Catholics Lutheran, I mean, it was just a whole gamut of faith leaders, specifically Christian faith leaders that were working together to push back, you know, marching in the streets, pushing back. And she shares about this one particular story of women who worked on this. You know, I guess I, I don't know, the word that comes to my mind is plantation. I think that's the word she used. It's, it's probably got some reminiscence of the plantations we might know in American history, but, you know, it's, it's a little bit bigger than that. But anyway, they were there and they, people lived there and worked for, uh, an owner and they wanted to improve their living conditions, the, the amount of food that their kids could get. Speaker 4 00:24:54 So they had planted all these banana trees around their huts. And one night, you know, after they had kind of come to a fruition, they were all burned down. And so Alexia is a pastor. She's, like I said, a young leader, a young organizer with these women, and she's hearing the cries and the whales of women because all of their hard work had been burned and their children would go hungry. And Alexia, of course, with her passion and heart and spiritual calling for justice is just enraged. And, and, and the, because they were taking it so well, I mean they were crying but they were taking it almost too well. She's like, well, you know, pushing them like we've gotta do more. And the women were at such peace. And I'm not telling, it's not my story to tell. So that's part of the reason I'm doing kind of a rough job. Speaker 4 00:25:38 So you gotta read the book. Um, cuz Alexia and I worked on that part in the chapter to make sure every detail was correct cause I don't wanna misrepresent her and her feelings and growth. But, but basically she's just like, how can you, you know, be okay with this? And, and, and they pushed back and to Alexia and said, you know, it's gonna happen like we and, and Alexia's. Like, but when is it gonna happen? When are you gonna have freedom? When are you gonna have, you know this, oh it's gonna happen. And this back and forth. And Alexia as tenacious as she is now, I can only imagine as a 20 something being tenacious. And she wouldn't stop asking virtually the same question. And they finally answered. And one of the women said, oh my children's children, it will happen. And it was this seed planted in her head and heart as a young person. Speaker 4 00:26:22 And these are my words o of what I perceived from what I've learned and even from my own life. And I'm thinking of Hebrews 11, that, you know, we plant the good seed, the good work we root down and we stay where we are supposed to stay because yes, we may not get what we hoped for, but our daughters daughters will, our children's children's will, you know, and that is why we stay very present and we don't give up just because we don't see results to the immediate of what we do when justice and God's justice is, you know, we're on God's side for that. Then we know that he is reigning and that he will get, he's gonna satisfy his own justice and that he invites us to join. And we need to set that hopeful vision. So hope is setting a vision of what can be and living it out by faith whether we see it or not. And so I share that story because it was so powerful and she still tells it all of these years later, as such a formative for my daughter's daughters, we will get there. Speaker 2 00:27:27 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Wow. And I think, if I'm not mistaken in that portion, um, part of what the woman says when she says, for my it will happen for my daughter's daughter, is I think she may have prefaced that with soon. Yes, Speaker 4 00:27:43 That's right. That's right. You know my book Better Than Me Cause you wrote it this morning and I wrote it a couple years ago, but Speaker 2 00:27:47 Yeah, no, but you know. Right. It's like that you're going I i is that soon? Yeah. Right. Is that soon? Yeah. For my daughter's daughter. Is that soon? Yeah. You know, um, but it's expected you sharing that. That's right. But it's Speaker 4 00:28:01 Expected. That's right. And I, that's love and that is the spirit even of, like I said, Hebrews 11, it's expectant. I anticipate, I expect that God will show up, that his justice will be delivered and couple generations. You know, I'm just, I it's expected. Speaker 2 00:28:19 That's right. That's right. And we, I said we were gonna talk about, uh, bringing your power and I think we will in a second, but I can't pass up this opportunity cuz here we are talking about your daughter's daughter and soon and this will happen and you have, you have adult children. I do. I survive. Like a lot of 'em. You had a lot of adult children. I do. And that it just brings up these images that they, and what I'm imagining when I'm reading your book, because we have, my husband and I have four kids, um, they are not adults. Can I just say <laugh>? Like Speaker 4 00:28:55 Not adults. You'll be soon. Alexis be expecting soon. Speaker 2 00:28:58 That's right, <laugh>. That's right. I'm hopeful they're not adults. But you have these stories about, you know, wrangling your kids and having these conversations with your kids and bringing your children with you along on this work. And I think this is hopeful in a time perspective as, as Alexia, you know, experienced in those moments. Like when, but there is also an expectation. I I think that as we are joining this work that, you know, our kids may not be activists or pastors or attorneys, um, you know, public policy people, but that their work will matter, their contributions will matter in this work too, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So not just, you know, in the time span of when our daughters will have children, but also in this, um, in the actual work mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> generationally. So, I mean, I'm, I'm sitting here reading your book as a mom, Michelle mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I'm like, here's the deal. This is, this is real life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, okay. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, and I know, like we see like, you know, the picture of you and Alexia and you're like at the capitol and you know, some of the, some of the stories we, Speaker 4 00:30:18 That was the day before we got arrested Speaker 2 00:30:20 <laugh> <laugh>. Speaker 4 00:30:22 And we were in the New York Times. So Yeah, I mean like, we've had some fun, you Speaker 2 00:30:25 Know, you've had some fun, but in Speaker 4 00:30:27 The midst of some really hard, hard issues. We really, yeah. We've had some, we've made memories. Speaker 2 00:30:32 It's fun as, as a parent though, you know, like you think this was the day before you got arrested and then you had to call home and say, yeah, mom's arrested. You know, like this is, this is real. Yeah. Life, you know, like there's, there's carpool and there's laundry Speaker 4 00:30:48 Lunches Speaker 2 00:30:48 And there's laundry, Speaker 4 00:30:49 There's laundry. The Speaker 2 00:30:50 Laundry that never Speaker 4 00:30:51 Is so much laundry. There's so much. And, Speaker 2 00:30:53 And this is like, this is a, this is a part of life though. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's as much as the laundry is a part of life. Yeah. The justice work is a part of life. So what does that look like for you as a mom, as a parent? You're a spouse, you guys are trying to figure out how to do this together. Speaker 4 00:31:10 Yeah. I'm really glad you, okay. So I think this will be my first part podcast ever talking about it. So I'm certainly thrilled for the question. And I, I'm a teacher, so my answers are all super long. Like I can't just answer question, I have to help. I'm thrill understand. I'm so you might have to just, just cut me off a few times. No, no, no. This is not a, this is not a well polished, you know, this is life. Yeah. And you know, when I say we were doing this as neighbors, I mean, who was living with me, but my children. Like, we planted ourselves in a community with intentionality. And it was to work and to worship and to live in a community where we could all have, we all, not just my family, but we could all have really deep roots. And what's beautiful about that is there's so much reciprocity. Speaker 4 00:31:53 You know, you can't, when you're coming in to serve you, can you show what you wanna show. It's almost like social media. You know, I show what I wanna show when you live next door, everybody knows when you got sick. Everybody knows when your kid's screaming at you. I'm like, there. I mean, it's just, this is a shared life, you know? And I've got so many of those stories, even as my kids were emerging through, you know, sort of those middle school years. And I remember one time, oh, Cindy was so mad at David when he dropped her off at youth group. I don't know what they were fighting about, but it was a very typical 13 year old fight. And she ends up in the bathroom. And my friend who has been, I mean like just, she's a, she's a warrior. She's an amazing woman. Speaker 4 00:32:31 Um, just such a different life, you know, than the one that I grew up in. And she's sitting there talking to Sydney about, you know, the situation. I'm like, there was, there's so much co-parenting is what I'm trying to say. There's so much co-parenting when you're living alongside an in, in deep enriched communities. So I never really stopped and thought, am I gonna be a faith rooted activist with my life? I didn't stop and think, well, I work on social justice with my life. I literally had none of those thoughts. I didn't even have that vocabulary. I literally was just planting myself and living alongside other people that their community struggles were different than my own. And so I tried to be the best student of my community. And that's part of it, being a student of the resistance, being a student of the community, being a student. Speaker 4 00:33:16 And I don't mean like taking a piece of paper and writing stuff. I don't mean that kind of student. I just mean sitting at the feet of the elders and figuring out like what is, I mean there's pearls of wisdom that are coming at me that I didn't even know would be pearls that I could need. So, so yeah. So I'm learning and my kids are learning and we're all just living together. And my children even more so than me, because this was the culture that they were birthed into. They have ways in that I never could have. They're all completely bilingual and bi literate and Spanish, and they have almost no accent. Like, let's start with that. You know? So there's just a lot that, that they just bring with not just language skill skills, but cultural skills. And the sensitivity that they have is, is beautiful. Speaker 4 00:34:02 But they, you know, when, when for me to report and tell you, oh, there was a school shooting at my kids' elementary school where two teachers were shot and the kids were all brought in. My children were on that playground. So I'm sharing it as a mother. And that sounds like, wow, that's really hard, Michelle. Okay. My kids were in the playground. They were in third and fifth grade and so this is their life. They didn't walk around thinking, you know what, this was just their life. So when we were doing anything, they were just present and a part of it. And sometimes they were even more directly impacted than we were. So this was this collective community. So the very first thing I ever marched, and I tell this story I think actually in both of my books in different ways, but it was the very first thing I ever do. Speaker 4 00:34:48 It was the very first march I went to my youngest, who is now a junior in college. He was a baby and a stroller. My daughter was a kindergartner and she was five and my other child was three. And we are marching in this, you know, I guess a parade or a march or a, it wasn't a protest march, but it felt more like a parade. But we were trying to raise awareness about this amendment that was going to shut down all E S L training in the state of Colorado. And I won't get into all of that, but I knew it was not gonna be helpful. And, and so I had never written things on my, you know, cars before about a, an amendment. I never really talked that much about public policy and how it was gonna impact my community. I, I mean, I just kept doing, we were all just doing things like my kids knew what was going on. Speaker 4 00:35:32 I knew what was going on. We were all just marching together. And so here I am marching and of course when you see a whole litany of people from the community and the reporters from all over the state, snap a picture. Who are you gonna get? But the white family with the stroller, right? So I land on the front page of newspapers all across. I mean, the very first day I ever decide to do that, there's a, there's a weightiness with that, right? Because it's telling a different story. But just to say, my kids were there and of course somebody was probably crying, I'm sure I needed to change a diaper. I'm sure somebody was complaining. I mean like, you know, but for them they still even remember. And then this very famous picture that became like the face of the movement, you know, or part of the face of the movement, you know, kind of went down in sort of Colorado history. Speaker 4 00:36:15 That's when, I mean like my kids were just a part of it. I remember this one particular event and this is when I thought, well I definitely don't think I'd be winning mother of the year for this one <laugh>. So, and that is I either I'm getting mother of the year or I'm getting worse mother of the year. There is no in between in my life and ra raising my kids. Um, you know, and I do wanna tap in on what good Christian mothers do because I think it did just the opposite, um, of every, but I will tell this one story. So this was I think in 2000, early 2010. So there's a lot of things happening in the state of Colorado. We had some of the most anti-immigrant legislation, 2006, 2007. And just because we were in the mountain west and we were super conservative, especially at that time, um, Arizona decided to copy our ways and they put in SB 10 70, which was in 2010. Speaker 4 00:37:00 So we had just lived through that and we had it reversed. And now we're watching, a lot of things are happening around the country. But my friends in around, there were some friends I had around the country. They were heading down to Arizona. I couldn't go, I couldn't go cuz it was the wrong time of year. I had no money. And I had three kids and I had just been out of town a little bit more. And so I was like, well, I can't go. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna do solidarity rallies all across the country. So I picked like five or six friends I had and said, okay, we're gonna do these solidarity rallies. They're gonna do it in Arizona, I'm gonna do it in Denver. You do it in DC you do it in Chicago, you do it in Nashville, you do it in pens. Speaker 4 00:37:36 I mean, like, we did 'em all around the country, Southern California. And it ended up being this really big national story once again, did not know that could happen. But I was, you know, figuring this out. So here I am and it's now January, 2010 and NPR is there. The Associated Press is there. I got hundreds of people because I decided to use language, um, that literally was brand new, which is I, on all my press releases and all our signs, it kept saying, pro-life means pro-immigrant. That was a, that was not normal in 20 2009 or 2010. We were blowing open something that hadn't been even said before. And I remember being the opening speaker, it was the first time that I said from a national, with a national audience that I was an evangelical. I'm not ashamed of my evangelical roots. It just never served me. Speaker 4 00:38:23 And I never even thought about it. But politically I'm like, okay, well you need to know I'm an evangelical too and I care about a whole litany of things that you're not. So that was my first opening speech. So that can be, oh, that's so wonderful. Okay. Really what was happening is I had three kids and they invited all their friends and everyone's running around with posters. And I, I couldn't, I could barely keep track of where they were. And I can't remember how old my youngest was. I guess he was seven. I think he was seven. All right, so imagine a seven year old, you're people are now deciding they're not listening to this podcast cuz I'm exactly who they shouldn't be. But seven, 11, and 13. So all of their friends are like 11 and 13, only one seven year old because that was my kid. Speaker 4 00:39:03 And I remember them coming up to me bothering me for like the thousandth time and I said, just go down to Colfax and Broadway and hold the signs. So people honk. Now for those of you who are in Colorado, you will know that Colfax and Broadway is just like, what is wrong with that woman? She should be arrested. Nobody should be sending 11 and 13 year olds. Of course our church was on Colfax. My kids took the bus. I mean the seven year old had some mad skills. I live in a neighborhood, I'm two blocks off of federal. You know, we have a lot of interesting things. I don't wanna put my neighborhood down, but a lot of things that would be shocking and scary to others is just commonplace for us. But yes, that's what my children would do. They were standing on the intersectional Colfax and Broadway and they were holding their signs, getting people to honk. And I remember thinking about that. Like, I don't think anybody should know I'm doing this <laugh>. Speaker 2 00:39:55 See, I'm laughing cuz my husband grew up just outside of Denver. Oh. And so I'm like, I know Colfax. Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah, of course. That's why I'm like, Speaker 4 00:40:02 Really, it's right between the capitol of the state and then the Denver City county building. And it is just seedy. It's just seedy. And especially back then, cuz we weren't as gentrified. Yeah, no, no. My kids were fine. I knew they were fine. I mean, the kids from the neighborhood, they're all tough. You know, like, things were gonna be fine. Nobody was gonna get taken, you know, I, I wasn't worried about kidnapping for sure, you know, like, but all I'm saying is that they were a part of it too. And I wasn't thinking what is their roles gonna be? Sometimes I was making stuff up on the fly and it wasn't just go sit in the corner. It was how can I get you involved? How can I help you? So that it didn't surprise me. So I said my daughter was 13 when she was 14, when she was a freshman in high school. Speaker 4 00:40:45 It was pretty much a weekly occurrence for several, several months because of things that were happening that she and a whole group of students would literally leave their school in protest and go down to the capitol in March. You know, they were in the capitol, they were meeting with state legislature legislators on things around what, what would fit kind of like on sort of social services and human services. They were meeting with things around in-state tuition because it felt so natural. And all three of my kids, that would be their story, which was, well yeah, of course we did that. And it wasn't always about marching, you know, of course we had this committee and we decided that we were going to, you know, do this particular thing on a Saturday. And so my mom helped, and this is where it obviously they're my kids. Speaker 4 00:41:27 So my mom wrote the press release and told the press they were coming. So we didn't just do it, but we did it with news cameras, you know, because we needed to raise the injustice. So yeah, there was a little bit of help with that regard, but that was the nature of our neighborhood was we are not victims to the status quo. We collectively have power and together we wanna resist. So when I talk about joining, go find those people, go find those people. Because when people found us and they funded our work and when they learned from us and they would, you know, bring what they could. And, and for me, I'm bringing stuff like, well I'm gonna let the press be know that we're here. You know, whatever skills you have, that's the solidarity. It isn't about me. It's how can I get your message? Speaker 4 00:42:05 How can we get what we need, um, out there? And honestly in that second section, which is staying at the table, I don't want people to worry about the table part. I want you to worry about the staying. Okay? The staying is the discipline. There's lots of tables. Sometimes they're not even real tables, you know, but it's the staying find where you wanna invest and stay. You're gonna have to work with people who have different ideas, who may not like you at first, who don't trust you. There's good reason for that. You know, whether you're a trustworthy person or not. Stay if they have a different theology than yours. If they have a different sexuality than yours. I mean, you're gonna have to work with people who are different in order to get that massive boulderer up the hill. And if you say things to me, if you're gonna show up to my protest or the protest of my community rather where I'm joining and you say, well, I'm wearing a Black Lives Matter t-shirt, but I don't support Black Lives Matter, just stay home, Speaker 4 00:43:01 Please. We don't need your nuance. Either you're in or you're out. And if you can't figure out how you are and you can't figure out why you're here, please don't step in. But here's what I'm gonna say. As a white person who proudly wears my black lives t-shirt, knows when to keep my mouth shut a little bit, as I say a little bit, cuz I still mess up. We actually do need you here. So do the reflection that you need to do, do the growing because your awareness to injustice demands a response. It's not okay for you to see things and hear things and not speak them. Speaker 2 00:43:36 Michelle, that's so good. And you know, and I think because of the, the things that you've experienced, um, I think that's a real temptation when people say, well what can I do? They think, well, I'm, I'm gonna, you know, maybe it's not a, maybe it's not a full out conscious thought, but it's kinda like, oh, I'll go show up to this and then there's gonna be cameras or there's gonna be whatever. Or I can post it on my social media and things will be really good. Um, you know, I'll, I'll kind of feel good or I'll, you know, I'll, I'll know that I'm contributing to the work in some way. But part of staying at the table is, I think is exactly what you just said, like this self-reflection part. Like digging, digging in and figuring out why do you even wanna go to that march? Speaker 2 00:44:16 Or what do, or are you gonna be okay? What about that time that you can't go because it doesn't fit your schedule like you just said and you're going, well then what do you do? Then you just say, well, just forget it. I guess that that didn't work out this time. You know, like, or what's your commitment level? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, where are you in this? Because the tough part, that's the, that's the tough part. And being in those relationships and letting people say things to you like, no, actually that was wrong of you to do that. Or that really was offensive to me. Or when you showed up, I experienced you like this and I think you should work on that. You know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and not just kind of getting huffy and okay, now I'm going off. But you know, not just, yeah, no, no, because that's, that's the commitment. Speaker 4 00:45:01 Well even the fra even the fragile feelings, like people should test the people who are walking in, you know, the book that I wrote was not about really marching, it was about the work between the marching, when the marching is dying down and no one's paying attention and injustice continues to rule the day, how are you going to respond? Because there were a lot of people that came out for George Floyd and that within a year, all of a sudden c r t laws were now on the books where we don't even wanna have the hint of telling anything for fear that our kids might be hurt. Now, I'm not get, I mean I can get into c r t cuz I'm a public policy person, but I'm just saying like the pendulum swings and we should not be as Christians with a firm and fixed foundation into God's heart, which is his foundations of his thrones metaphorically are righteous and justice. Speaker 4 00:46:01 You know, it's not like, well I guess I'm gonna be righteous, or I'm guess I'm gonna, I mean, it didn't work that way. They, they are intrinsically linked and righteousness has literally, almost nothing to do with individual piety. You know, you need to do some Hebrew study, like kind of learn a little bit of your theology. Sk is not about how many times you read your Bible or how you go to church. That is not righteousness. Righteousness is the outward expression of what you do. It's the right kind of living that literally becomes justice. You cannot be a righteous person without doing justice. So you cannot decide what you are in and out. So, so how are we going to live out God's righteousness and justice here on earth in the face of injustice, especially when it doesn't seem like we can contribute? Because when I walked in, a couple things happened, you know, one people weren't super happy, okay, it's fine, keep going back. Speaker 4 00:46:54 And if even when they say hard things, just meet with them and say, I I'm trying to, to be a good neighbor. How can I follow, how can I serve? How can I stay committed? You know, people will tell you if you keep showing up, you know, I, I got a math degree in my undergraduate and freshman year stinks. If you're gonna be a doctor, an engineer, a math, all they do is try to flunk you because everybody thinks they wanna be a doctor. So, you know, no professor looks you in the eye. They give you impossible questions. They wanna see do you have the ability to get a c do you have the ability to stay even though there's, you know, blood red all over your paper, you know, in, in math I always said this is possibly get like a negative 300. You know, every little thing is a point of like, do you have the stamina to do this because you are not the smartest person in the world. Speaker 4 00:47:39 Like, you may have been the smartest person and you thought you were gonna go be a doctor. You thought you're gonna be an engineer. This is a hard discipline and I'm gonna flunk you until you say I'm not leaving Fs B. You know, so I'm, that's this kind of work is like, I don't care. I'm gonna keep showing up because just like the disciples when when Jesus, I mean this is very similar. I think of this, this story where, you know, everybody leaves Jesus. Cuz he says some weird stuff. Like, unless you eat my flesh and drink blood, and like, okay, now we're out, we're out. And the disciples are standing there and he is like, you gonna leave too? And they're like, where are we gonna go? That's how I feel like in the work of recesses. Where am I gonna go if it's not with you to join in writing the wrongs of this world and of a kingdom that is here but isn't totally here. Speaker 4 00:48:32 You know, where am I gonna go? You think I'm gonna go back to my home? You think I'm gonna fit in? It's not even fitting in. I I have no desire, there's nothing there for me seeing and experiencing and being a part of this shared journey towards liberation that is bigger than the United States immigration system that's bigger than the 400 years of enslavement that's bigger, you know, than even Pope and, you know, manifest destiny and all of the different things that were happening. And I can even think of all the, I'm just thinking back all of the years and years and years, where am I gonna go? I am commended for living by faith, which is doing a work that is to the unseen. I need to be a part of the work that is God is doing in his world. And here's the thing about some of those photos, all right? Speaker 4 00:49:24 So, you know, I I'm saying don't be performative and don't get your, don't get pictured don't, don't place yourself. When I was sharing that story of being on the front page, this was a long time ago, and so we didn't have social media. Nobody was lifting me up as a hero in that picture. That is when the resistance started. How could you march with them? How could you be on that other person's side? How can you stand against this amendment? Don't you care about English speaking kids? Don't you care about your roots? I mean, that's another part of resistance. When you do the work of resistance, you will, the reason it's resistance is that when you're, that's when you're facing it. When you're coming out from thinking things and moving into speaking them and then using your body, that's the resistance. No one's gonna bug you if you're complacent to the status quo. Speaker 4 00:50:19 I mean, if you're thinking that's unjust and you literally do nothing about it. There will be no resistance. It'll also not contribute at all to reversing injustice. The more bold you are, the more you will understand this is resistance because of the very people that will resist you. And they're the people for me at this point, you know, I mean, every time I have to start all over again, you know, with a group of people who are directly impacted, if that were the case, you have to kind of earn your trust. Um, but the, the perpetual resistance are the people for my origin, which is why leveraging it is such a hard challenge. So the staying at the table, the last chapter of that is leveraging your privilege before you head into the third and final section, which is help your people. And when you begin to realize that at the table, people there are going to ask you to help, that's when I realized, oh, I gotta go back home. Speaker 4 00:51:14 Because I was sitting at this multi-faith gathering table and I'm like, man, how come I'm the only evangelical sitting here? How come I'm the only white evangelical sitting here? And I was lamenting in, I was sad. And I'm gonna tell you, white evangelicals, people don't say nice things about you, multi-faith environments. So I'm sitting there and I'm listening. I'm like, yeah, yeah. My people, my people, my people. And then they're all kind of looking at me. What are you gonna do with your people? I'm like, I don't wanna do anything with my people. I'm just like, why are you sitting here then? I don't wanna go back home. Well, you're the only one who can, they're not our home. I'm like, ah, nope. You know? So that's what I'm just like, you could, that's the reason you're sitting here, Michelle. We actually don't need you. Speaker 4 00:51:47 If you're gonna take all of that access to power and literally do nothing with it because of the resistance, like, we're dying here and it's your people that's killing us, go back there and help them. You can stay here, you can help us. But if you don't do that work, who is going to do it? And that was a sobering reality. And so if you're gonna help your people, that's why those chapters, they're very personal. And I'm gonna say, Alexis, I don't know how, um, chapter seven hit you, but I still have not read it without crying. It is so vulnerable. I tried to be as honest as possible. And like with my first book, I was like, oh dear, what's my mama gonna say? I got a mother too, you know, I wanna break her heart. Yeah. And then this book, apparently my mother-in-law is this one even better. Speaker 4 00:52:29 So I don't know how, because it's pre scathing, um, about my lack of love for my people. And it's not about my mom, but I'm just like, you know, white suburban evangelicals, which is my history. I'm just like, wow, you can't help with people you don't love. So you need to be rooted in love. You need to double down in love. You know, you can't do this as a showmanship and performance and try to shame people. Like your wokeness isn't an opportunity to perform, you know? And it isn't an opportunity to shame other white people. And so you need to do it rooted in peace. And that is not keeping of the status quo, that is disrupting the presence of injustice so that justice can prevail. So you do it with peace, not to piss people off, not to burn, you know, like you're gonna have to make people choose on the bridge, but don't burn it. Speaker 4 00:53:11 You know? So how are you gonna do it? Rooted in peace. And then my final one is, it's super depressing to lose. It's hard to lose family. It's hard to lose friends. It's hard to lose in the face of injustice. You, I mean, I lose people to the incarceration system. I lose people to deportation. I lose people to covid. You know, there's so much I, and I say I my community, we lose so much that it's hard to not only keep hope, but like do the work rooted and joy. And that's why I just felt so important. No, I need to double down on joy. I need to double down on peace. I need to double down on love. And here's the thing, that's a fruit of the spirit. I don't even have to do the work. I just have to be willing to grow and be stretched because there is joy and love and peace and all that goodness of the Holy Spirit waiting for us when we root down. Speaker 2 00:54:00 Yeah. I mean, I wish I could say that. Like, I totally didn't relate to any of those last chapters. <laugh>, Speaker 4 00:54:07 Did you cry at all? No. Speaker 2 00:54:09 <laugh>. I mean, it's, you know, but it's, it's tough. I mean, I, I don't wanna like totally like throw my husband under the bus, but I kind of will. And since he produces it, he can delete this if he wants to. Um, you know, but we were just chatting the other day about some of our experiences, and he just looked at me, he's like, I'm done. Like, I'm done with the white Evangelical church, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like, I'm finished. Like, let's, like, we don't, you know, that's not really where we live right now, but he's kinda like, you know, I'm, I'm training to be a pastor, right? And he's kind of begging me, like, don't take us back there. Right? Like, don't, like, I, I'm not interested in that. Um, and, and that's kind of, you know, when, when, when you look around those rooms in some of those spaces and realize that no one else looks like you, then I, I can, you know, I, that resonates with me, right? Speaker 2 00:54:54 Because I wanna say, like, if I wanted, like, if I wanted to be a part of this community, why would I be a part of this one? Right? Like the, that's like, I came out, you don't get that. Like, I, I don't live there anymore. But I'll say what, I've shared this in a few different conversations. This was 2020. We're all, you know, we're all stuck at home. I'm having a phone conversation with one of my black girlfriends, and she and I are crying our eyes out and, and we're having some of these that we started this conversation with, what do we do? What's going on? You know, all this. And, um, the podcast had been going, you know, for a little while at that point. And, and she just says to me something that I, that I still hate. Like, I still hate it, but I still know that it's true. And she's like, Lex, you've gotta, you have to keep talking about this. And she said, because there are some people who will only hear this from someone who looks like you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, she said, they won't hear it from me. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that this is my community. It doesn't matter that this is how it affects me. It doesn't matter. There are some people who will only hear this from someone who looks like you. That sucks Michelle. Speaker 4 00:56:03 It, it, it does <laugh>, because I'm like, oh, I think they've burned me at the stake a few times. You know, it's risky work. It, it, that's, that's kind of our cost for justice, I guess. I mean, the thing is, is that justice, the work of justice is extremely expensive, and it is the most expensive for people who are directly impacted. You know, that's why, why it's so important to, when I say center them, that's why you have to ask why are you here? You know, it, it's really about them. If it is about yourself, you probably will have shallow roots and you'll leave. You know? So you need to, you need to be in deep community with people who are impacted by the issues that you feel passionate about, because they keep you there. And, and it's only in those deep relationships that I would go back. Speaker 4 00:56:50 It's only for them, right? Because yeah, there's just a, you don't, you don't leave. Nobody can leave safely if you leave for real. And it, and it starts with your own grief of, I've been kind of, i I say this from like overseas missionaries a lot. It's like you begin to see your country and your culture, and you're like, wow, how it fits in the world. At first, it's like, it's so novel to be somewhere else. And then you begin to hear things about, you know, where you came from, and then you begin to see things. And it's almost like this grief of, wow, I, I didn't even wanna detach. Like I didn't want to be such a betrayer to, to see where I came from in any negative light, because I'm from there. This is my mom, this is my dad, these are my family. Speaker 4 00:57:39 I love them so much. They love me so much. They've supported me as I've, you know, continued to walk out. And of course they're gonna ask me questions. You really gonna raise your baby in that school? You're like, why you nuts, you know, <laugh>, it's just for my dad, whose parents were like fifth and eighth grade education, Italian immigrant family. So like, really, Michelle, I worked so hard to get us out of there. Are you telling me you're the oldest person in my, you know, oldest child? Why are you going back there? You know? So, so you've already kind of, you haven't betrayed, but, but you do feel a little bit like you're betraying. And then you get deeper and deeper and deeper. And I will say this, and this is, this is not my, my parents, but you know, the community's just like, well, they may not burn us at the stake and like stone us anymore. Speaker 4 00:58:21 The prophets that begin to see and then say, which is what you have to do. Um, but they do cut off your funding and they try to use power. Like, and they call and threaten your husband because your wife has said this, we're no longer gonna be able to support this organization that helps homeless people. I'm like, really? Okay. You know? And then you begin to question, because power has a way of controlling you. So then you go even a little bit farther. So it's not just some simple, you know, I've walked away. I don't walk away. I mean, I walked away because I was pushed out because my values changed, or the way I saw the world. It didn't, I didn't reject my upbringing. I grew and I expanded and I tried to help you understand, but you don't wanna see it. And so now you've labeled me a liberal, you've labeled me someone you can't hear, you know, I'm a woman, so I'm just too much or I'm too emotional or I, you know, like I was kind of, I don't joke around, but I used to joke around. Speaker 4 00:59:15 Now I'm like so mad at this idea that my husband and I have the exact same thought. He's a good thinker and I'm a flaming liberal. I'm like, how did that happen? You know? But women are pursued, perceived so different, especially in the church. We just don't have ears to hear them. We haven't disciplined ourselves. So everything is irritating. Um, and then you say things I don't, then I'm not, I'm not even just using your language and your theology in a way that's comfortable. Now I'm expressing it. It's like, well, that's just too much, so I'm just gonna shut you off and I'm gonna de devalidate, you know, unvalidated your voice, your whole purpose in the world. You know? So that's why I'm saying when you're building bridges back home, it's people have have just labeled you, labeled me in ways that I don't have to listen to you. Speaker 4 00:59:56 Okay, well, I'm gonna try again, you know, and I'm gonna, and I'm gonna do it because doing justice requires loving mercy and being humble, and I mentioned this earlier, but we don't talk enough about loving mercy. You know, mercy is a response to a problem. And the problem of somebody, you know, hating you deserves a merciful response or not forgiving you or saying, speaking ill against you. It's in, it's in God's mercy that I reach back, back to you. And I love you and I forgive you. And I don't do it in a way that, again, is performative, but it's in healing. Like, I'm okay. I'm okay if you reject me again. But I'm gonna try because this is the work, this is the work I'm called to do. So was talking to our development director from the organization, we started and we were joking around that every time I open my mouth, open our ministries loses more money. Speaker 4 01:00:50 Which there's some truth to that. We get more supporters in in some ways, and we lose others. And we, we are at our 25th anniversary, and she and I, were at the book launch. We're talking to a group of people and I make that comment and Sharon's like, sure, sure do, sure do. Every single time, you know, that's what's happening. And I'm like, what did they think was gonna happen? Like, like, seriously. This is what they get. They invested in me. They sent me out, you know, they decided I was called, I was sent, they gave us money. They've invested, they volunteered. And, and, and they really thought I wasn't gonna change <laugh>. They paid for me to change. They wanted me to change. I'm a spiritual leader in their community. They just won't listen. Actually, that's not true. There's some people that are listening and you write books and you know, you talk and we just keep doing the work, Alexis, we keep doing the work because it's not done. That's right, <laugh>. That's right. We Speaker 2 01:01:42 Keep, we keep doing the work because it's not done. No, that's exactly right. And, and, and, you know, I feel like that's, that's the place. But I think, but going back to Alexia, I say, but Speaker 4 01:01:52 Soon, yes, but soon, but soon. And it's a good work. So this is what I go back, this is the work, this is the good work that we are called to do. I, I don't know how I missed it for so many years, but Genesis to Revelations finally makes sense. And I understand how it is literally good, good news for everyone, especially for the poor. It is good news that I get to live here on this earth with the truth of Christ and joining him in his restorative work. And that someday, you know, there'll be, there'll be an eternity. But I don't even wanna rush to that someday because it's so good to join Christ in his redemptive good work. And I see light, I see so much light, cracks of light all over the place in darkness. And even though there's so much hard and so much evil and so much, um, I guess I'm thinking bad in the world, you know, Christ asks us to join him and to overcome it with good and to not be, not be overcome. Speaker 4 01:02:52 And I do, I feel, I feel encouraged that we have the tools that we need to be the repairs and the restores if we will make the sacrifice. And I'm kind of referring to Isaiah 58 and it's, that chapter's interesting. I don't talk about it in my book, but it'll come in the next one cuz the next one is about peacemaking. I couldn't just write a book on peacemaking because literally I was afraid my people would say, oh, it's so good. We want it to be quiet and not to have war either. And we're just gonna read a book on peacemaking. Not realizing the sacrifice of proximity or resistance is how you get peace. Um, you know, but just this whole idea that, that we need to have this message that this really important message of truth and goodness, um, to come to the world. Speaker 4 01:03:35 Um, but anyway, that, that's for another day. That's for another time and another story. But, but yeah, we need to, we need to be agents of peace in a broken world, and we have what we need. And Isaiah 58, really it's not Isaiah one, like the whole book of Isaiah is sort of this Hopi judgment, you know, kind of judgey rather and Hopi kind of book. And in the beginning you see Isaiah like, I don't want you singing your songs and kind of tired of your sacrifices. And that's sort of the bare minimum follower of God. But as you get into Isaiah 58, we now we're talking about fasting, you know, like these are people who are, are really into it, you know, and I'll bring it up to now, I know you go to church, know you listen to Alexis, another podcast. I know you, you know, are reading your bible and you know, understanding that. Speaker 4 01:04:21 But, but, and, and you're fasting even, but even, even in your fasting, is that really what I wanted you was to like be hungry and bow your head. No, I wanted to sacrifice. Yeah. And fasting is a sacrifice. It is hard to deny your flesh. But that's not the kind of denying of flesh I'm talking about. I'm talking about the denying of flesh that you would join people who are oppressed, that you would join the Hungary, that you would join the homeless, that you would join the prisoner. You know, it's kinda like the parallel of ma ma um, Matthew 2025, that you would be fasting and sacrificing and denying your worldly and fleshly desires to only live for yourself, but find the most vulnerable people and release them. That's what I'm talking about. And when you do that work, then light's gonna break forth in darkness. Speaker 4 01:05:05 And not just you, but your generations. You are going to be known for being restores and repairs. This whole world is gonna be turned upside down because of your love and your commitment to sacrifice and not living for yourself. I mean, it's just so uniform from the prophets to Jesus. And I'm thinking of Matthew and you know, come, you are weary and take my don't have your own agenda. Follow me. I'm meek and I'm humble. I'm not walking with my own a agenda. I'm agen following the agenda of the Father. I don't wanna be fair say go. I don't wanna be rich in spirit. I want to follow the father so that when he comes back, cuz in Matthew 25, we're predicting it so much so that I got my oil, so I'm ready. I've invested the, my talents without reservation whether I got one, three or five. And then the third one, this is how I'm investing it into the sick, into the poor, into the prisoner. Because then you will know that I've, I've seen the face of Jesus here on this earth. And then the Father will say, well done. You are with me forever. Speaker 2 01:06:06 Amen, Michelle. Amen. I'm just gonna throw it out there. I hope you come back and talk about the next book, <laugh>. Speaker 4 01:06:13 Thank you. I hope you Speaker 2 01:06:14 Come back before then. But I can't believe Speaker 4 01:06:15 I keep saying that. I'm just like, it was always supposed to be a three one proximity resistance piece. And I don't really like writing <laugh>, you know, it's crazy, Alexis, I apparently am not bad at it, but, and I don't struggle with writer's block, but I do struggle with just the discipline of it, and I just dread it so much. But I also know that I feel like I need to get it out. And it's funny, my first editor, Helen Lee, who I adore told me, and this was, I was a little bit farther ahead in parenting than you, but not much. And she told me that I needed to write my first book because I was too tired not to. And then she ha because I was arguing with, I mean, I don't think I have time, you know? No, no, you're too tired not to. Speaker 4 01:06:57 I was like, okay, well I don't mind this. I'm exhausted, you know, like, tell me how am I gonna have more energy? And she said, you need to stop giving this message one-on-one, one on 30, one on 300, even one on 3000. You need to let the message get lift and you know, go impact and, and you're too tired not to do that. And I was like, oh, thank God. All right, I'm gonna be rested, so I'm gonna sit down and learn the discipline of writing. So I wrote that book and, and I will say this that I love her dearly, but she's a liar cuz I was not more rested after I wrote that first book. And I've told that to her. I've told that publicly and she does laugh, but I just wanted to go, Helen, I love you and I'm so thankful for your help, but not make me laugh tired. Speaker 4 01:07:34 Anyway, that second book just sitting down, it's just, the thing is the story's not done. The work isn't the marching, the work is the presence of justice. It is the unrelenting conviction that injustice does not have to rule the day that the presence of justice, which is the essence of peace, the reconnection, the shalom that this prince of peace was coming to restore. That's the work. And you don't have peace without resistance. But let me tell you what peacemaking is. Peacemaking is really about two things. It's about truth telling and it's about repair. You need to be honest with what's really going on and not be afraid of its rawness and you need to work towards its restoration. That's what a peacemaker does. I do know that, and I've seen it on Facebook many, many times, never from the communities I live in. So lemme just start with that. Speaker 4 01:08:32 But it is sort of a cute pose where three people, one will cover their eyes, one will cover their ears, and one will cover their mouth because they're trying to take a picture of see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. What I wanna say about that, that is privilege. When you have the privilege and the luxury to close your eyes to the injustice, to the ears, your ears, to the pain and the, and the cries of hurting people. And you have the audacity to not have to say anything for your own personal comfort. That is the essence of privilege. But that is not what the people of God do because they are honest. They are willing to see the truth of injustice. Even if it overwhelms them, it makes 'em feel guilty. They work through it. They're just like, I see this for real. Speaker 4 01:09:18 I will not deny someone's pain and oppression and I will open my ears even though the wailing and the lament is it's gonna, it's gonna make me, you know, feel like I'm gonna die too. Because that's what lament does. But that's the beginning of healing is when you allow them the levels of grief to work through your whole body so that you never get up the same so that you use your mouth to speak and profess the truth of what is happening in. Unless we have that type of conviction, we will never get the restoration, the reconciliation, the repair, that all of creation since the beginning of time when everything that was good and very good became broken longs to have ceased. Those groanings will never be ceased until that restoration. And that is tied to honesty in that's peacemaking truth telling restoration. More notes, Michelle more notes. Speaker 4 01:10:18 So that's that third book. And I guess I either that I'll just keep talking about it unless I find someone Lee chasing me down. But anyway, I I hope that people in your listeners will be willing to read that second book. I do think it is a powerful message for the church. One of the things that in my evangelical cultural upbringing, you know, you never makes politics with church outside of a couple issues, but you know, you just, you're not supposed to get political and that is also privilege. Yes. You don't have to get political so you don't, um, I think it's a cultural rule. It's not a theological one. And I don't, I tried really hard in this book to make sure that it was practitioner and story-based, but also I, I mean the prophets that have more pages than any part in section of the Bible. Speaker 4 01:11:01 And that's exactly what they did. The work of resistance. So I highlight a prophet in each of the one nine chapters. Of course the parables of Jesus, you know, the prophet, you know, Jesus human, God himself come to earth to tell us the ways of the Father and to really bring up forth his, you know, righteousness and justice here with his kingdom. But it is theological. And I, I really need us to know that we have a legacy not just in our history of people, but in our theology, our deep, deep theology to cry out in the face of injustice and owe that it will be such a good day when the prophet Amos is metaphor where justice can finally roll down like a river where righteousness can finally be a never-ending stream. That that would be the status quo. That will be a good day. But right now the status quo is injustice and unrighteousness. And the third thing is complacency. That we may not be the people of God that are complacent with the status quo, but that we may join Christ and his good resistance work in the world. I believe that is the good work of the people of God. Speaker 2 01:12:14 Michelle, I'm grateful. I'm grateful. Um, gosh, I could do this all day. <laugh> <laugh>. I could do this all day. Speaker 4 01:12:23 Well it would be all day. Cuz you've read the book all day now you've talked to me. It's been a long day for you, Speaker 2 01:12:27 <laugh>. Oh no, it's been a wonderful day. But I'm, I'm gonna highlight this again. Um, before we sign off here, uh, the link for ordering the book will be in the show notes here. And, um, I just, I just say Hardy, amen. I just say hard amen to what I read today and to what you spoke to us. Um, I'm grateful for your wisdom and your work in this space. Um, this is join the resistance step into the good work of Kingdom Justice by Michelle Regno. Warren. Michelle, thank you. Thank you. Thank you Speaker 4 01:13:01 Alexis. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast, for talking about these really important, often under underrepresented themes of the Bible. And I would say, I'm not gonna go into it right now, but we need to do this work with song. And so as a worship leader, I, I highlight that. I, I hope that in your busyness of reading that you'll maybe listen to a couple of the songs in my Spotify playlist that I've, you know, put throughout the book. But I think it's really important for us not to just do the song, the story. I mean do the work, but to do it, you know, with so much boldness. I I think songs as resistance is the way it should be done. Speaker 2 01:13:38 Amen. Amen. I look forward to it. And there's a, there's a, a code a qr, is that what they call it? Yeah, Speaker 4 01:13:44 Qr Speaker 2 01:13:44 Qr Q a qr at qr Speaker 4 01:13:45 The end of every chapter code at the end of every chapter so you can listen. And I tried to get as much original stuff in there, like the actual Yeah. People who were really known for singing those songs. So yeah, I mean it's just a beautiful story in itself. Speaker 2 01:13:58 Yeah. Thank you so much. Speaker 4 01:14:00 Thank you. Speaker 1 01:14:02 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth Boetti. Be sure to give us a, a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also visit us at. That makes total sense com.