[00:00:07] Speaker A: Welcome to that Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same.
Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice. But the how sometimes Elusa that Makes Total Sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day.
Hey, everybody.
I finished this most incredible book today.
I'll tell you, it's funny. The COVID is really beautiful, but there were a few of us who picked up the book and were trying to read it left to right.
So it's called Jesus of the east reclaiming the Gospel for the Wounded. But the way it's printed, some of us were like, wait a minute, Joe. Yeah. Anyway, but it's gorgeous and amazing, and it is not a new release, but I would say one that is as the words we use it in pre recording just the information in this is perennial. So I'm really appreciative for your work, for you writing it and sharing it with me, and thanks for coming on today to talk about it.
[00:01:29] Speaker B: Thank you, Alexis. I appreciate the opportunity.
[00:01:34] Speaker A: So I was really intrigued by the title Jesus of the east, but also this subtitle, Reclaiming the Gospel for the Wounded. And I want to start by saying I don't know how it could be a surprise with the title, but I was pleasantly surprised when I dug into the book and was reminded of some of the traditions from Eastern Christianity that I had honestly sometimes just kind of blown through in some of my church history classes. Global tradition classes. And I had this warm feeling inside, and I was like, oh, yes, I remember reading about this, the differences in sin concepts and incarnation. And I had this just warm feeling kind of bubble up all over again. And I was like, yeah, I wanted to spend more time there. And thanks to your book and this conversation, I get to spend a bit more time there.
So I would love for that to be the place where we started. But I would also love to get some of your background and how this not just conceptual Jesus of the east, but how this real incarnational Jesus of the east became someone who really interested you, someone that you want to follow and love and imitate and how this Jesus of the east has captivated you.
[00:03:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I love the way in which you framed those questions.
So I some time ago had started my PhD work and was interested in describing atonement theories, and I had taught several classes in Christian history, christian doctrine, the history of Christian doctrine, and came across this concept that was just, I thought, really important about how the idea of redemption should be described, but it's not a necessity.
What does it mean? It's not necessity.
It questions whether or not Christ had to die. And if that's a possible question, a theologian's question, then that sort of takes apart all these things that we think of when we talk about redemption. And Jesus died on cross for our sins and things of that nature. So it started me on this long journey of trying to figure out then, like you, I had studied these theories of atonement in seminary and understood them, but did not grasp the various nuances and what each theologian who has set down those theories were, what they were trying to convey, and then other ways to look at what Jesus actually did. So I wrestled a long time with this and came across the work of a Korean American theologian, he's Methodist Andrewson Park, and his work on what he calls the triune atonement.
And then I came across a work of Canadian theologian Bradley Jerzick. And I found him out through a mutual friend who is an Old Testament theologian who wrote this wonderful article about Isaiah and the suffering servant.
And so in my conversation with Jerzic, I discovered how similar what is called Mingjiang, or the people's theology that centered around the healing of those wounded by oppression and what the early Eastern fighters were doing in their work, and then came to put those together. And, like, this is something fantastic that I really needed to explore. And so 90,000 words later, I did it in my dissertation. Six years and 90,000 words later.
And then from that, of course, we all know that dissertations are written for five people on this planet.
I had to distill maybe I would say, 10% of what was good from my work into Jesus of these.
That's how the journey began. It was one of just really tough work, trying to get a sense of what theologians were doing in history, the earliest ones, Ireneus or Lyons, and taking that and bringing it to contemporary theology and doing something good with.
So basically, the premise of Jesus of the east is and the thing is, Jesus of east should not be controversial because Jesus came from a Near Eastern country whose culture is very much different than ours.
And also, the earliest theologians were these Eastern fathers doing work, trying to explain their experience of God in this world given Jesus'life. And so it should not be controversial, but it is, because what we have inherited, especially here in the US. Is a Jesus of the west, one that's much different, shaped by a lot of other factors that's sort of the origin of the book.
[00:09:22] Speaker A: Yeah, the western Jesus. And I think it's clear from the context in which you're speaking. But I want to say for me, because even as I was writing some of my notes, when we're talking about Jesus of Western Christianity and Jesus of Eastern Christianity, historically, folks can look this up and read. I mean, they wouldn't be able to read all of the volumes written on this, but there's just not enough time. But historically, we're talking way, way back, there were splits. And the tradition that we have been raised in without even really knowing it has come from a Western Christianity split. So when I'm saying Western and you're saying Western, we're not saying things that originated now like the US. And Western Europe. Kind of as we think of this, we're talking about this way back in third century time and around this time and then the east, which survives in some forms in some traditions like Eastern Orthodoxy and things like so that's kind of just for clarity. What we're talking about when we're talking about this western Christianity and Eastern Christianity. Western Jesus and Eastern Jesus. But there are some theological concepts that were at the centers of some of these schisms that have shaped that have continued to shape the traditions. And one of them I would love for you to elaborate on is this concept that we have grown up as a given. I would say speak for myself, but most of us, and I think in American evangelicalism at least, and Catholicism to that matter, of original sin. And we think about this in a certain way, and Eastern traditions think about this in a very different way, which shapes how we think about Jesus, how we think about his life here, how we think about the Incarnation.
It just shapes the way even how we think about ourselves and our relationship to God. So can you give us maybe some Cliff's Notes on how the Eastern tradition would even frame that concept or even if they would frame that concept?
[00:11:54] Speaker B: Yeah. So the concept of original sin as we know it today, like you said in the Roman Catholic Church, and then even in regular church parlance and even among different denominations, is about the idea that sin originated from our primeval ancestors, right? Adam and Eve disobey god. They sinned against God.
They were cursed. That curse is death, and we inherit that curse by being so our guilt is traced back to Adam and Eve. And so we are all by nature sinners because of that original sin. So that's usually the framing of and going back to this idea of Western Church that had became a major staple of the Western Church, the Roman Church, during the time of Constantine. We have a major church theologian, Augustine of Hippo, who brought that to the center stage.
And the Church adopted it as the main way in which they would talk about the reason why Jesus died on the cross was to cleanse us from that original sin.
And for the Roman Catholic Church, the only way in which we were cleansed from it is literally through baptism. So that's why the babies are baptized, to rid of that original sin.
And so that was God's grace. The sacrament is the visible display of that invisible grace given to people. Okay? And so that's the story of original sin. Well, during that time in the Roman world when the church councils met, there was also the Eastern church. And the Eastern Church, by and large did not have the same theories about original sin.
They had a story of sin, but it didn't go back to Adam.
Sin was in the world and it's like radiation, like nuclear waste. It's in the world and it taints our life and we can fall into sin.
And those are choices that we make.
And baptism served a very different thing as a way to enter into relationship with Christ's body, but it was not to wash away any kind of original sin. So their reading of Adam Eve was not that Adam and Eve brought sin to the world, but instead shame, which is a very eastern concept. Okay, if you want to talk about shame, I'm from an Asian culture. I could talk about growing up in shame all day long.
But this idea of guilt is not know. And you read the story of Genesis and one way to read it is that why did Adam hide from God? Well, he was ashamed that he was naked. He saw that at one time he was intimate with God. Right. Nakedness is a metaphor for intimacy. Right. And he and Eve, humanity, we were all intimate with God. And now because of the things we did, we were no longer intimate with God. We saw our shame and we hid from God. But God always would return to us to ask if we would take walks with God. That's a beautiful story and way to put it, shame came into the world and that's what we have to deal with, okay?
This pull of shame. But it was never guilt. It was never about guilt.
And in a lot of ways shame could be a good thing. Because if we're ashamed of something that we did improve, right? We could always make changes. Whereas guilt we're just declared guilty or not. Right. And that's almost impossible to fix. Right?
The story of the Western church is one of this original sin that we are somehow all sinners going back to Adam, whether Adam seed or some spiritual inheritance of sin.
But the problem with that, and the real problem, is that it doesn't separate the sinner from the sin against. Okay? So what I mean is, let's say at any given church, on any given Sunday, we go church and at the end, whether it be before we take communion or at the end of a church service, the pastor, priest would invite people up, right?
And we would get a forgiveness of sins.
In the Episcopal Church there's the confession of sin, there's an absolution of sin. Other churches, there might be an altar call, right, to pray the sinner's prayer. But ultimately the person who is a sinner gets forgiven of sin. Right? There's something there for them, right? But if we talk about the sinner, right, let's say I'm the sinner, I did something bad, I need forgiveness, okay?
The pastor, she prays for me, I'm forgiven, okay? Thank God. No more sin. Okay, but that assumes that I sinned against someone, correct?
So here I am, I'm forgiven.
That's great for me, but what about the person I sinned against?
What did they get?
Nada. Right?
So this is the framework from which I'm operating. Jesus, in his time, he ministered to those who were sinned against those who were wounded by the political and religious structures. Okay? So the people who he was with, they were often called what? Sinners. Okay?
Were they really sinners? Did they actually did anything wrong? Well, the word sinners sometimes apply to shepherds. Okay? Why were shepherds sinners? I asked my students this, okay?
If you're a shepherd, you have sheep, and it was a Sabbath, the time of rest, you go to synagogue, you study the Torah.
That's great. Now, if you're a shepherd and it's Friday evening, you're getting ready for Sabbath, you can leave your sheep under the tree, you can walk off and go to synagogue. No, you can't do that, okay? It's a full time job. So because the shepherds could not keep to those religious practices, they were called sinners by the religious people.
So that was a name given to them.
And when Jesus is accused of eating and drinking with the sinners, these were people who the religious elites, the Pharisees, the scribes would say, these are the unholy people. We're holy by nature of what we do.
They're unholy.
But were they actually sinners?
What sin did they really commit? And so Jesus spent his life in ministry to these people.
People who were spiritually wounded by being oppressed in that way. Religiously oppressed, but also people who were wounded physically, people who had ailments, sick, the lame, the lepers. They were considered sinners because of this idea that if you were lame or blind or whatever, there must be something that you did wrong and God cursed you. Therefore, by nature, you're a sinner. Okay? And so Jesus was whose sin was this?
So that this man was born blind, right? They had this reverse causal idea that goes back to the Book of Deuteronomy, right? If you are blessed, that means you've done. Well. If you're cursed, you've done.
So what I'm trying to do is go back and just basically ask a question, okay?
If Christianity is about Jesus dying on the cross forgiving our sins, erasing that, no more no more sin, right?
Alexis we look around, no more sin. Nowhere. Okay? If that was really true, then why didn't it work?
Okay, but we've told ourselves a story over and over again.
And so I'm trying to say, okay, maybe, just maybe, we got this a little bit messed up, and I'm trying to find another way forward.
[00:24:12] Speaker A: Well, I like the way that you kind of helped us envision this because we've been taught to think about ourselves as sinners. And so when we can receive this blessing, this prayer, this assurance that now we have been forgiven but yes, then what about the people who have been wounded, who have been harmed? What about us when we've been harmed by someone else's sin?
This is one question that I kind of want to leave hanging a little bit because we do talk quite a bit about justice and justice related things on this podcast. So I want to leave that hanging in the air for me and for folks right now. And I want to ask another related question, because in this Western Christianity that you described and we're all born sinners because of Adam and Eve, and we have this guilt now if we take this know tradition and it looks very different than the shame from the Eastern tradition. But one of the things that we've also been discipled under this theology is that God is very angry about it.
And so there is an atonement theory that is quite popular. We weren't taught it I wasn't taught it as an atonement theory. I was taught it as the atonement theory, which is a penal substitution atonement the truth. Right? Exactly.
Which basically, in a kind of blunt nutshell, basically sounds a little bit like this because of our sin that we have inherited, god is very angry with the world, he's very angry with people.
And this sounds crazy when I'm saying it very bluntly like this to me. I would say it now because it just sounds very harsh, but God was very angry and his wrath had to be poured out on something. He had to do something about it. And so he took it out on Jesus. He sacrificed Jesus. Jesus willingly went, but he was sacrificed and now his wrath is satisfied. He doesn't have to do anything to humans. If though, and there's a big if, right, they receive this idea, this belief, they come into this belief that this happened. They believe on Jesus is how I was raised to say it. And then now this is kind of another tricky part, the wrath will eternally be poured out on someone, folks who don't subscribe to this belief, but for everyone else it isn't. And one of the things that caught my attention when I was reading through your book was just I'm saying let's just step back for a second. Let's just pretend that this was the first time I've ever heard this. It's not.
I'm in my forty s and I was raised in the Bible belt buckle of the Bible Belt. So this is not the first time I've heard this. But I just sit back and say what if this is the first time I've heard this. And what if this was a story someone was telling me about their father or their uncle or a leader in their community or someone like this, I would have a perspective of this person is not that's not loving, this is not a kind thing to do. This is not a caring situation. And that's just me just kind of thinking through it. But I had to pause and say, how is this the only way to think about it? I mean, I've been introduced to some other theories in the last several years that I've got to be truthful, I like better than this one. But this is still the predominant, especially in American evangelicalism, this is still the predominant atonement theory. We can call it even atonement as we chatted about pre record, even that word is tricky because it's not found anywhere biblically, this word. So we're kind of working from some things that people have found in the scriptures over the centuries. But I'm bringing this up for a couple of reasons. A because it's very formative. So it shapes how we think about ourselves as people.
It frames how we think about God as creator and lover of our souls.
It feels like a juxtaposition there, but it also has shaped and we may not completely get there, but I'm going to throw this out and ask people, skip to the last chapter in the book, if you can, because this is where you really talk about a lot of the implications systemically. But this also really shapes the systems that we have built that are based on these justice systems that say like retributive is the answer.
We have to do something. I live in Texas, you and I both live in Texas. So thinking about the death penalty, right, violence is the answer for violence, things like this. So it's formative in a lot of ways. Because when and I want you to talk about this, but I'm going to throw this out there when we subscribe to this kind of theory and we believe this about God, it stamps it my words, like it gives it some kind of stamp of approval, right, that says violence is okay.
Heck, this is the way that the world has been saved is through God co signing or, ordaining, or demanding some sort of act of violence. And not just an act of violence, but an act of violence against his own person, his own son. However we view this against someone who showed up as human. So anyway, I'm going to step back for a second and let you explain, correct, edit and further no that topic.
[00:31:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you got it spot on.
I would even add God's violence towards God's self, right.
What we know a subpoena substitutionary view of Toman is not very old. Historically, this comes to by way of John Calvin, 16th century, about which he kind of pilfered anselm's theory. So early medieval theory, 11th century.
But when we talk about early Christianity, Irenaeus, we're talking close to apostolic age where these were the first disciples.
This idea about God having to punish because of God's anger, now, it's just very problematic.
Some theologians, let's say, like John Piper would say something like, well, that's God's loving way we punish our children because we love them, okay?
And I say, okay, sure, we might do that, but how about this?
The punishment that we give to our children is not in violence or should not be in violence. Violence and love are mutually exclusive. Okay?
The reason why I'm adamant to say this is that just in that idea or the word violence to violate, okay, if we are children of God, those made by God, it very much bothers me that God would violate God's creation in that way. And Jesus is described as the pinnacle of God's creation or the foundation of God's creation, however you want to describe Jesus.
And so saying that God did this and that's justification for what we can do, if God did it, then why not? Why can't we do this?
Saying that just is very problematic.
And also saying God had to do this, this is the only way in which can happen. Okay? So God, who, as Christians describe is all powerful, all knowing, all loving God is bound to one way to solve a problem.
To me, again, ridiculous.
It's hard for me to comprehend that that's how God's justice would work, right?
Because in no world can we say that.
I use this illustration to my students, okay? So Lena, she got an A on her paper.
It was perfect paper.
I read it today. So if you're listening, Lena, that's 100.
But another person, he just fouled it up. But I said I could take your paper, Lena, and give him the grade and punish you, give you F. That's my justice.
In no world would that be called justice, but Christians have stamped it as something just and therefore justified. The other things we do which are injust.
I think you have it spot on. And those are the implications, right.
We have in our Western society, justified the use of violence because, one, we think it's redemptive somehow, right?
That if we meet violence with violence, something good can come out of it, okay? Or that happened and it was bad and God ordained it because it was violent. God will use know, one illustration I had in my know, God caused the Vietnam War so I could come here to the States and be a Christian, okay?
That's how God uses violence.
So two, violence is used to say that these are the ways in which we could solve things in our world.
So that our litmus test for success in life is violence. Okay, that might seem extreme, but think of the language in which we use, and we teach our young people this all the time. So when we want to say, you're going to do great on a test, we say stuff like, you killed it.
You nailed it. Okay?
When a young man is successful in engaging with a young woman romantically, you bagged her. You nailed when I'm typing email to you, Alexis, I can shoot you an email.
I can take a stab at this.
If we just sit and think about how we talk about and Ocean Boom has talked about this more than I have. But if we look at how we talk about success in life, the things we achieve, accomplishments, ways in which we solve problems and violence, the language of violence there are so many intersections of so we have it in our psychological memories and histories in the west to describe what we do on a daily basis as being so. That comes around to how we perceive God as being one who must do this in order to get what God wants in the world.
[00:39:24] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you for that.
I want to say, can we start wrapping up? We're going to start landing the plane. I do want to get to this kind of last chapter where you talk about the implications a bit and maybe moving forward in different ways.
I want to use an example that really struck me, and that was this example of an African tribe. And in this tribe, they have a tradition that when someone does something I think the words you use are someone does something irresponsible or unjust, something like that, that this person gets set in the middle of a circle. And people come around him or her and recall, individually recall the good things that this person has done and the strengths, the character strengths of this person. And so I'm not using this example, nor do I think you are, to say accountability is not important or anything like that. But I would say when I read that, what I thought was, isn't that just like God to remind us of in times of trouble, in times of foolishness, in times of irresponsibility that we all face, to remind us of who we are, the good things that we exhibit, how he created us?
And just thinking about now, maybe this is because if I go real old school evangelical, I'll say way back when I took my test, it came up as words of affirmation, as a love language for me. So this is 25 year old test or something.
So maybe it hit me in a particular way because of that.
But I'm just thinking what is more motivational for us to move forward in love, for us to move forward in peace, for us to move forward in responsibility, for us to move forward in justice, to be reminded of who we really are and not of our foolish?
Of there's a verse in Philippians when Paul it's one of those memory verses that probably we all have to memorize as teenagers or something like this, right? Not to be anxious for anything but in prayer and supplication, right? With thanksgiving.
And I think about that because I think when I'm feeling anxious, something that helps me is to be reminded of how I've seen God to be faithful and trustworthy in the past and think he's not changing in that way. Right. He'll continue to be trustworthy and faithful in the future. But I sometimes need to be reminded of how he has been in the past. Anyway, I say all that to say this being reminded of who we are, our character, the good things that we've done, the strengths that we have, the ways that we've helped people, are ways to think about going forward again. Not to say accountability isn't important, but to think about punishment, to think about the kind of violence that's used to think about our prison systems where people are locked up and sometimes in solitary confinement and not able to see sunshine or interact with loved ones, the people who know them best, the people who have cared for them.
This can feel really immobilizing to think about. How can I possibly move forward? I'm stuck in the worst thing that I've ever done.
I used to work in casework for the state when I was, I think, probably too young to be doing that kind of work, but I did it pretty much right out of college. And one of the things that we were trained in is to say is to have the mindset that we were joining with people who often had just possibly made the worst mistakes of their lives.
And what does that look like to partner with someone and to be involved in that level of intimacy even as you alluded to before knowing that that person you may know maybe the kind of the worst thing about them. What does that look like to move forward? How can we do that with compassion? How can we do that with grace? How can we do that with wisdom and encouragement? And anyhow, just thinking about that tribe really hit me in how does God meet us when we have done irresponsible and foolish things? Does he meet us with wrath? Does he meet us with violence? Does he meet us or does he meet us with compassion? And I think seeing that embodied in Jesus and maybe that's what you talk about that or talk about anything else in relation to that, but just kind of thinking about Jesus embodiment. I don't see the wrath of the penal substitution atonement theories in the life of Jesus and how he interacted with, quote, sinners.
[00:45:08] Speaker B: Yeah, we could think of the story of the prodigal son, which is a story of not only the son but the father and the older brother. Right?
I'm trying to get the story renamed, the story of the father, the older brother, the younger son. That's not going to happen. But that story, I rewrote it in my book and is one where if you notice that the younger son comes. Back to his father and he says, Forgive me, I'm a sinner.
Take me back.
And his father never called him a sinner, okay?
His father simply said and he's talking to the older brother, your brother.
He was once lost and now is found.
He was once dead and is alive.
Now, I asked my students, this is being lost a bad thing?
And they would say no.
Before we had the GPS on our phones driving around Houston, I get lost all the time, but there is no condemnation in being.
And so the perspective of the Son was he was a sinner, but the perspective of the Father was.
And that's amazing because before Jesus tells the story of these three characters, he tells the story of the lost coin and the lost sheep. Right? And what were the Pharisees and the scribes criticizing him for was eating and drinking with the sinners. Right. So he was really telling these stories to them in a way, maybe those disciples who overheard. But that was Jesus'perspective again.
Yes. Accountability describes the Pharisees, even the Sadducees and the Roman officials, they need accountability. They need to be confronted.
But those who were broken by the system, those who were lost, those who were sick, they needed healing. They needed to see themselves as more than what society saw of them. They needed to see themselves as Jesus saw them. Right.
Jesus saw his disciples as being more than their labels, more than what others thought about them, more than what they thought about themselves.
Peter was Jesus'nickname for, you know, the rock, someone stable, steadfast, reliable, in which Peter was not that person at know. But Jesus always saw him differently. And the other day I had a student who I was doing a discussion in my ethics class and one of my students kept on doing some cross talk with her.
And I don't have much patience, Alexis. Okay. I don't know why I'm a school teacher. That's sort of God has a sense of humor. But I told her, okay, please, it's either me talking or you talking. Okay? We can't have both. And I could tell she recognized it. She said, I'm sorry.
You could talk.
She was hurt by it.
And after class, I called her over outside and I said, I love you so much. You mean the world to me.
You're one of the best. Do you know that?
Yes. And she said, I'm sorry. And I said, I just want you to know that I think that's how we should be. That's how our corrections should go, that we remind our young people who they really are.
And our accountability to them is to make sure they know that if they don't, then they do go off and they do get lost.
But the good news is we're here to steer them back. And good news is God will always steer us back. Right. Continuously. And that's where I have problems with this idea. God cannot tolerate sin, cannot somehow it's an offense to God. Like, that premise that God needs to pour out God's wrath on sin is patently mistaken, given the life of Jesus being with us, right, Emmanuel?
Not to justify the sinful acts that we do that's not know, but to help us see the things we are doing as wrong and helping us to realize and correct that and also giving us a way forward. Because I think most of the time, our young people and us, we choose to do the wrong things because we don't see the path forward, right? We think in this world there are no options, other options. And that's the damn thing about violence as solution, right? We only see one solution.
I think those are the real implications of this work. And if that was Christianity's message to the world, I think things would be a lot different.
[00:52:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
Wow. Thank you.
That's a lot to think about.
I love a good interview, a good recording, and in my mind it is usually like, I'm thinking how grateful I am just to be able to process this with the author, something like this. So I almost always come away with more questions than I brought into the conversation. And I think that's a good thing to continually be questioning and thinking about these things.
Because I think, in short, that what you touched on at the end has been true for probably most of us in our lives. When we have made decisions, it's because we felt that maybe there was no other way. And I think that that's something that we kind of almost kind of laughing stereotypically see in Jesus is that he almost always presents something that was completely off the wall, completely not what we thought were the options in certain scenarios. And so to follow Jesus sometimes means looking for options in place where we thought previously there were no options.
That's so good.
Thank you so much for being with me today. I want to encourage folks again. This came out in 2020. This is not, though, a trendy text. This is a meaty one, one that we can come back to revisit.
There's lots of history here, there's lots of Bible, there's lots of theology and there's lots of ethics and justice and I think hope in this text. And so I just want to encourage people to grab a copy. Again. It's Jesus of the east. Reclaiming the gospel for the wounded by you. Thank you. Thank you for spending your time with me today.
[00:54:31] Speaker B: Thank you so much, Alexis. It's been a pleasure. Could I say a few things about following me on the Social 100%?
[00:54:42] Speaker A: I would love it.
[00:54:46] Speaker B: Please follow me on Instagram if you get a chance. I'm on Facebook, but don't often comment. Instagram is where I comment. I'm not on Twitter for personal reasons.
I have websitefulu.com. I'm also an artist, and so you could see my work there. And for all your listeners, I am writing another manuscript called People of the Way and so talking about how we as Christians, how the Christian religion, this movement could move forward and not back, and finding ways in which we could enter into conversation with culture and be transformative, restorative and healing.
[00:56:00] Speaker A: Amazing. Thank you so much. When is that due out? Is that going to be 25?
[00:56:09] Speaker B: I'm not sure yet, but I'll let you know as soon as I know. So it's still in process.
[00:56:21] Speaker A: Awesome. And I think the Instagram handle is it right? Is it Houston?
[00:56:27] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:56:27] Speaker A: Okay, good. I'll put the website thank you so much for mentioning that. I often forget. So I'll put the website with your art, beautiful art, and the Instagram handle in the Show Notes for this episode so that people can find you and follow along and interact with you.
[00:56:49] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:56:50] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:56:51] Speaker B: Thank you so much for the conversation. It's been so life giving.
[00:56:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I appreciate it. Same here. I feel the same way. All right, talk soon.
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