Episode 285 - Erin Hicks Moon

[00:00:07] Speaker A: Welcome to that Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes eludes us. That makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. Okay, so I'm here with my guest, Erin. Erin, I was flustered when I came in just now. We had a little bit of pre. Record time and you know what? I didn't tell you why I was late. [00:00:54] Speaker B: Why? [00:00:55] Speaker A: Because we decided on a whim to today to go see Wicked. [00:01:01] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh, I'm so happy for you. [00:01:04] Speaker A: I. I actually thought you might be. I was like, oh, my God. [00:01:07] Speaker B: What did you think? [00:01:08] Speaker A: Oh, I had a lot of feelings, but. Okay, you want to know the most, the most profound, the most deep feeling I had? [00:01:15] Speaker B: I do, I do. [00:01:17] Speaker A: Ariana Grande crush. [00:01:21] Speaker B: She crushed it. [00:01:22] Speaker A: Crushed the whole. [00:01:23] Speaker B: Don't. Like, I don't love her. She's not my favorite, but I, like, I was like, no, I gotta give it to you. Like, you killed. [00:01:30] Speaker A: I mean, she killed it. [00:01:32] Speaker B: Killed it. [00:01:33] Speaker A: Like, she killed it. And yeah, I'm the same. I'm like, I'll sing along if, like, there's a song on the radio. Teenage daughters, you know, so of course, like, we're going to sing audio and grenade. But, but, but, like, I just didn't even know. [00:01:43] Speaker B: No, well, you know, like, she took acting. [00:01:45] Speaker A: No idea. [00:01:45] Speaker B: She took acting lessons for this for like a year solid. Like during the pandemic. She was like, that's what she did. She just hunkered down and did acting lessons because they were like, well, you know, we. You can kill the vocals, but like, if you really want to. If you really want to be in contention for this. Yeah, you got to sharpen those acting sk. [00:02:02] Speaker A: So well, she did it. [00:02:03] Speaker B: She really did. [00:02:04] Speaker A: She did it. I know. I mean, she did. So anyway, so that. That is why I came in. Flustered, late. It's one of those, you know, we live in Houston. It's like, okay, we're recording this right now like before Christmas. And so I'm like, What's normally a seven minute drive? [00:02:16] Speaker B: Yes. [00:02:16] Speaker A: Then it was like a 15. I like, I didn't do the math right in my head to begin with and all this stuff. And I was like, it's gonna be so close. So anyway, thanks for grace. I'M coming in flustered, but I got to see Wicked. [00:02:28] Speaker B: I know. And that. And really, that was like, we don't need. Like, we don't need any other further. Like, no, you saw Wicked. I saw what you needed to do today. So if you were a couple minutes late, it doesn't matter. [00:02:37] Speaker A: That's. That's what I need. That's what my soul needed for me to see today. I know probably by now people have figured out I'm sitting here with Aaron Hicks Moon. I am. I am thrilled that I got to see Wicked. I am equally probably, in fact, more thrilled that I'm sitting here with you to talk about this book because I laughed my butt off. [00:02:58] Speaker B: I'm so glad. That really makes me happy. I really wanted to write a book about deconstruction that did not take its. It took it seriously, but not like myself or anyone else. Too seriously. [00:03:11] Speaker A: Oh, I laughed my butt off. Now I'm feeling real ill prepared because we've done this already. Okay, so this is coming out the beginning of February. February 4th. [00:03:20] Speaker B: February 4th. Yeah. [00:03:21] Speaker A: 2025 is called I've Got Questions. The Spiritual Practice of Having it out with God by Aaron Hicks Moon. Aaron, we. It's not that often that I get to talk to someone else who understands Texas. [00:03:37] Speaker B: Oh, yes. And listen, I understand, like, we are so specifically linked. Like, there's a little part of the panhandle of Texas and the. And like the southern Oklahoma that, like, they. We understand each other. I don't know that we, like, like if there's a. There's a. There's a unsteady peace between the two. You know what I mean? [00:03:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:56] Speaker B: We're like, like Oklahomans don't trust Texans and Texans don't trust Oklahoma 100% in this area. It's like begrudgingly. I will offer you my respect. [00:04:04] Speaker A: Yes, that's right. That's right. And I refer to Oklahoma, actually, because I've been in Texas now for 15 years. Don't tell anyone I say. There's only a few cities in Texas I would live in. Houston is one of them. Okay. I just. [00:04:19] Speaker B: And you're braver than me. You're braver than me. [00:04:21] Speaker A: I did terrify years. I mean, Houston, My biggest fear in Houston is teaching my kids to drive here. [00:04:28] Speaker B: Oh, God, yes. I could not imagine. [00:04:30] Speaker A: I mean, we're not there yet, but we're very, very close. And it does terrify me. And I will say that it terrified me from the moment my daughters were born. [00:04:38] Speaker B: You were like, I'm gonna have to do this. [00:04:40] Speaker A: I'm gonna have to do this. And 16 years. So it's. I've been holding that for. For all of this time, like, oh. [00:04:47] Speaker B: It'S gonna come out. It's all gonna get released this year. [00:04:49] Speaker A: So I think that's why they were like, dad can teach us, you know? And I'm like, well, wouldn't you love that? But it's probably not gonna happen. But I. When I moved here, I realized, because I did a couple of years in college in San Antonio, and I loved San Antonio. So great. It's just a great city. But I. When I lived here, like, for real. For real, I was like, oh, Oklahoma. Now, don't tell the other Oklahomans. Oklahoma is really just diet Texas. Right? So brutal. [00:05:25] Speaker B: It's like, that's exactly what every Texan would tell you. So I know that we have, like, thoroughly gotten you over to our own side. [00:05:32] Speaker A: It is. It's just diet Texas. It's, like, not quite the flavor. It's not quite the punch, you know, but you want to be. And you say, like, diet Coke. Like, we taste just like regular Coke. [00:05:42] Speaker B: Same. It's the same. [00:05:43] Speaker A: In fact, some people prefer Diet Coke, and the Coke people say, not exactly. [00:05:51] Speaker B: It's not the same. It's not exactly the same. [00:05:53] Speaker A: Yeah. So I think Oklahoma is really just a bit diet Texas. [00:05:57] Speaker B: That's so funny. [00:05:59] Speaker A: But I'm saying that because I'm reading your book, and I'm like, aaron, we grew up in the same church. [00:06:07] Speaker B: We had to. [00:06:09] Speaker A: We grew up in the same church. The carpet was the same. The pews were probably the same. The in remembrance of table was probably the same one. We just, you know, rotated it. [00:06:22] Speaker B: Yep, it's. [00:06:23] Speaker A: It's the same. And when I was reading this, I thought. But it's not just me and Aaron. [00:06:29] Speaker B: No, absolutely not. It's really not at all. [00:06:32] Speaker A: There's a whole lot of us out there who grew up in the same. In the same church. So that is kind of where I almost want to start is. Is like when you were writing this and you wanted, as you mentioned, to write a book that took the subject seriously, but not like yourself or. I mean, I would say I didn't. I didn't feel like I could take myself too. Too seriously when I was reading this book. I was really grateful for that. [00:06:57] Speaker B: I'm glad. [00:06:58] Speaker A: But I think, like, so am I your audience. Is it. Is it me? Is it the people who grew up in your mustard carpet, SBC ish church? Who. Who is it? And then, like, really, what's your hope for us? Because I'm. I'm kind of feeling like the audience might be wide. I definitely was included in it, and I can share with you, and hopefully I will during this podcast. Like, what. How the book kind of touched me. But I'm curious, when you were writing it, like, what was your hope for us? [00:07:29] Speaker B: I think my hope was essentially freedom. I for so long felt so boxed in by what I quote, unquote, supposed to believe. And I don't know that anyone ever, like, specifically said that to me. Like, you need to believe these specific things in order to be a productive Christian. But there was. There were. There were boundaries that someone had set up, maybe partially me, maybe partially other people, that did not allow me really to walk in any kind of freedom in my own faith. And so I think what I hope is that I hope people feel empowered that their questions are not only valid, but important. The thing is that they doubt that means something, and that cure and, like, following that curiosity will bring you closer to God. I really do believe that. You know, you said it's not just us. It's absolutely not just us. I talk with people all the time. Dms, email, offline, and they are reckoning with what they believe. Either they have seen what the public witness of Christianity is in the United States right now, and that does not. That doesn't fit with what they understand about the Gospels and Jesus, or they've had all these questions for so long, or they're getting married and they're dealing with purity, culture, and, like, the backlash for that. There's so many people that are dealing with things like this, and I think, I hope that they. That anyone who reads this finds a new practice that doesn't bypass those curiosities and that anger and those real feelings, but engages with God in order to be loved and be known and be, you know, fully. To love and be fully loved. I think. And, you know, the kingdom of God doesn't just belong to people who have got it all figured out. Jesus is very specific about that. In the Sermon on the Mount, he's like, it belongs to the doubters and the curious and the poor in spirit and the confused and the frustrated. It's as much yours as it is anyone else's. [00:09:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, gosh, there's so much there. But this, like, you know, when you say you don't know if you ever explicitly told that. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I was. I'll just, like, be. [00:09:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think it was. Yes. I think in a way, I was. But also, even as I moved out of that, like, you know, got older and went to college and, you know, lived on my own, I think there were still. They were still invisible. It was like an invisible face for me. It didn't really register that it was still there, but it was. [00:10:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think for. I mean, part of my situation in that is that I have a personality that, like, tends toward rules and boundaries and things like that. Like, I. I would say less now, but especially in my, like, childhood, teenage, you know, young adult, I'm like, that's kind of stuff. I loved it. Like, it felt very clear to me. Kind of made me feel safe. [00:10:32] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:10:33] Speaker A: Equation kinds of things, you know, if that then this, you know, would happen or whatever it was. And it just. It just felt good to me. [00:10:45] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:10:46] Speaker A: But when I started kind of going, wait a minute. And it was actually partially led to this, to this podcast, actually, because I started just asking myself, like, what, what if? And this really was a big what if question for me. And I feel like for people listening, it may be they may have gone through something similar or maybe they are going through something similar where I was like, what if it's not actually about having all of the, like, air quote, right answers? Sure, yeah. Like, what if this faith thing isn't about that? What if part of it is just asking better questions and that. That you're talking about the curious, the curiosity, the doubting, you know, those kinds of things that felt very threatening to my faith when I was. When I was younger and, and even into my adulthood, they just didn't. It didn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. There were things that felt very incongruent, but still, the question asking was very intimidating for me. I didn't feel like there were a lot of folks around me who were asking questions and starting to do those kinds of things. And so one of the things that hit me when I was. When I was reading your book, because you share a lot of your story now, which is so great, but is, I'm wondering, like, what has that meant for you? You know, like, as you've been going through, whatever. And I'll let you describe kind of how, you know, we. We named deconstruction in general earlier. But, like, as you've been going through your own faith. Okay. Journey. We don't have anything to drink. I tried to avoid it so much, but I. It's okay. [00:12:28] Speaker B: You can't really. It's not possible. That's why I had to make A joke out of it. [00:12:32] Speaker A: Have you been going through your faith journey? Drink something now. Like, what has it meant to you to have people who have been alongside of you, whether they were like supporting you or also like fellow question askers or like people that you felt like could encourage you and accompany you as you were, you know, moving through that. I don't know, I'm just wondering if you can talk about like, how. What part of that were meaningful for you or why was that meaningful for you to have those folks. [00:13:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I think. Well, I think so much of this process is very isolating, the deconstruction, the evolution of your faith. It's enormously isolating one, because it's personal and it's, it's between you and God and Holy Spirit and I. And, and also it does unfortunately sometimes accompany the loss of community. I, I've talked to so many people in, in offline, online who say things like I asked too many questions and I got kicked out of my small group. And like, like that's real. Or I asked a question and I, it was very clear that I was not wanted in this faith community anymore. And I really do feel like that is. Personally, I believe that's one of the biggest obstacles people have to like making the decision to start like investigating their faith to really. Because, because, I mean, what did you say earlier? You said it felt very safe. There was a certainty and there's a comfort in that. No question about it. And loneliness is terrible. And loneliness while you're trying to unpack one of the most important parts of your soul is enormously unmoring. And so I think, you know, for me in the book, I just wanted to remind people that they weren't alone, that and, and not lie about, hey, yeah, this might really suck. I mean, just like you might, you might get kicked out of your small group, you might not have the same kind of relationship with people when they realize that you don't necessarily are not necessarily sticking with the things that you did. And you know, people don't need someone with all the answers and they wouldn't find that in me or anyone, frankly. But the presence, I think just reminding people, like, there is someone with you, there is someone with you who is, who loves you enough to let you work this out without needing you to be okay or to have all the right answers or to even come to a certain conclusion, I think is really important. And that's, that's really what I wanted to offer with this was like, hey, there's no judgment in where you Land here, but the work to get to where you're going to land. And by the way, we never really land, but in that work, like, you have someone with you. [00:15:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I. I think that was part of what felt really good about these pages was I. And I have had people close to me and. And I think sometimes you can. You can just sense the fear of, like, I don't know where. I don't know where I'm gonna land, but I'm afraid if I land in the wrong spot, you know, like, there are some people who are getting kicked out for asking the questions, but there are some people who are like, I'm asking the questions and I may stop asking the questions. [00:16:07] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. And. And listen, I. It's not that I don't think that that's not a valid thing. Absolutely not. I understand the value of community means to be on the outside of something and what it means to be on the inside of something. And I think what is hard is even if you. If you were like, I want to ask these questions, but I don't think I can because I don't think my relationships can sustain them. What you're going to have to deal with is the fact that that doesn't mean you shouldn't ask the questions. It technically means you need new relationships. And that's really hard. Like, really hard. And I don't. I don't ever want to act like that's an easy choice to make. [00:16:45] Speaker A: Right. But I mean. But I. Part of what I was trying to say is I. I felt in your book, though, this, like, a sense of, like, here is at least one person. I may not know her personally, but here's at least one person who is saying to me, you know, I'm not. I'm not going to judge you where. Where you land. And this really is a personal thing and not just, like, I'm not going to judge you because I don't care, but, like, like, the. I don't know. What I felt was, like, this faith to say, like. Like I really believed that you and God, you, You, you, like, got this. [00:17:20] Speaker B: Oh, well, I don't know. I don't know if God would really. [00:17:24] Speaker A: Like, I mean, like, you know, like, I felt like, as a reader, like, Like Aaron saying, like, you. You got this, you know, like, yeah, figure this out. And God's with you and wherever you land and. And you said you never really land. That kind of brings me to the. Yet a couple of metaphors. [00:17:40] Speaker B: Yeah, just a few. I love a metaphor. [00:17:42] Speaker A: Couple of metaphors. And I love a metaphor, too. It really does feel, I think, going along with this, it kind of can feel, like you mentioned at the beginning, this, like, this plastic bag situation where we're just kind of like, you're not just floating around. When I see a plastic bag, it's not like all real graceful. [00:18:00] Speaker B: No. [00:18:01] Speaker A: In the parking lot. Like, it's kind of jerky sometimes. [00:18:05] Speaker B: And getting snagged on stuff. Yes. Yeah. Like 100. [00:18:09] Speaker A: All of that. And I just kind of felt in these pages, like, this permission of, like, here's somebody who's saying, like, just. Just let yourself go, you know, like, let yourself ask the things like move where. Where. Where you are feeling led to move and just see, because it can be scary and jagged and all those things. [00:18:31] Speaker B: And I think some of that, you know, the way we grew up, you know, was you can't trust yourself. Yeah. [00:18:37] Speaker A: You. [00:18:38] Speaker B: Your heart is deceitful above all things. And while also simultaneously being like, hey, Jesus lives in your heart and you have Holy Spirit. So figure that out, I guess. And also, you're 17. And so I just. It was all. It's that act of understanding. Like, hey, just because I'm feeling it, it doesn't mean it's evil or wrong. Just because I'm asking a question, that doesn't mean that I don't believe the things that I used to believe. It doesn't mean I'm going to keep. It doesn't mean that I'm going to go in this direction necessarily. But just having that, like, kind of arena space to walk around and. And go, okay, what's this? What's going on here? I got some. I got a question about this. This has made me really curious. What about the biblical inerrancy? What about women? You know, all of these things. I think giving yourself the space to do that as opposed to just letting yourself be thrown in the wind to, you know, whoever told you, whatever. When you were however, you know, whatever age that is, that's not. That's not a life. That's you just existing. And I don't. I do believe that Jesus says that we will have abundant life in him, that he has come to give us abundant life. And so the plastic bag metaphor was so real to me because that is how I felt before I was able to give myself the agency to work with Holy Spirit to start asking some of those questions. [00:20:08] Speaker A: What you just said reminded me years ago. So my husband and I have been married for like a hundred years. Some hundred. A hundred years. It feels like 100 years. Of bliss, honey. Because he's gonna. [00:20:21] Speaker B: Yes. [00:20:21] Speaker A: When he's producing this. [00:20:23] Speaker B: You just wouldn't believe how hard she's smiling right now. [00:20:25] Speaker A: I'm smitten. But no, we've been married for forever and ever. And years and years ago. Something that was very helpful for us, especially helpful for me, was that we have two different processing styles. And so I tend to think, to talk. [00:20:43] Speaker B: Okay. [00:20:44] Speaker A: So I'm. I'm a very much an internal processor. Generally, I'm pretty extroverted and stuff. But, like, if I'm, like, thinking about something very serious or deep stuff or is, like, affecting my person, like, no one in my life will hear about it probably for a long time, because I just have to sit with myself. And for a long time. My husband, on the other hand. And this is where it came up for me, because when you're like, I may not even go in that direction, but I just kind of want to ask. He talks to think. [00:21:14] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:21:15] Speaker A: And so. But I'm his conversation partner. Like, his primary conversation partner. And so we'll sit at the breakfast, like, you know, our kids have gotten now where they're better about it. But I think for years, it was like, they just hated Saturday mornings, you know, because mom and dad would just sit at the breakfast table for an unreasonable amount of time, have coffee and enjoy each other's company and talk and just talk. And he went. Once I was able to learn this about him, and it took more than just him telling me. I had to really process what this means because I don't understand this kind of processing. He would talk to think, and so I couldn't take everything he said as gospel. [00:21:58] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:21:58] Speaker A: Because he might just be saying it just to see how it sounds. [00:22:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:03] Speaker A: When it comes out of his mouth. And then tomorrow, he may even forget he said it or, you know, the next day, whatever. And. And he's also an 8 on the enneagram. And so whenever he is doing this, he's very passionate about authoritative, probably, oh, 100%. Like, it's very. And we say it's eight talking because the volume gets louder, you know, and all of the things. And I'm like, you sounded like this was the gospel truth. And he's like, yeah, I didn't. I didn't really mean that. I was. Yeah, he was just talking. [00:22:29] Speaker B: Just talking it out. [00:22:30] Speaker A: But I think it's helpful for me to even think about that sometimes in this process. It doesn't mean this stuff is garbage that's coming out or whatever. It's like we're processing. [00:22:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:39] Speaker A: We're trying to figure it out. Do I actually believe this? Do I actually think this? Do I want to keep going in this direction or not? One of the things that you said in the book a few times that caught my attention because my therapist helped me with this language again, like, probably 50 years ago was when I was starting to go through this process, and she said, well, you and Jesus, you're just gonna have to figure out what stays and what goes. And. And I was kind of, like, mortified at the beginning because I was like, everything stays. Duh. Yeah, you know, like. Or I could have been in a spot where I was like, everything goes. [00:23:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it all goes. [00:23:23] Speaker A: It all goes. But this idea of. And you bring it up, too, of what stays and what goes, and it may be you may go through a season where something stays, and the next season you think it should go vice versa. I mean, what. What is that? I mean, as much as you want to share, like, what has that been like for you? Or what have you seen? How do you feel that that is helpful in this process? [00:23:52] Speaker B: I think, you know, you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And I. I think that is our natural inclination as humans. If we see something that is what we perceive as wrong or incorrect, we want to eradicate it. Right? But so, like, so much of life, the faith that we built as children with the help of whoever built it with us or in teenager years or whenever, that is more nuanced than. Than just, you know, cutting everything out. And listen, I do think cutting everything out is the correct answer for some people. I know, people who have been so traumatized by organized religions, specifically Christianity, that this is the only way they can surv. So I'm not talking about that, but I'm saying for someone like me, who didn't, who just got some bad teaching along the way, and that wasn't anyone's fault. It's interesting because, like, I'm also having to come to terms with the fact that, like, my kids are going to go through a process similar to this, because I do think everyone does kind of go through it. And what will be the things that I taught them in earnest, or I taught them without even realizing I was teaching them that they are going to be like, I don't think. I don't think mom was right about that. And I want that for them. I would much rather that happened than them subscribe to everything I've ever said. But as far as what's staying and what is going for me, it was honoring all of the things that came with my particular faith, evolution, even the things that were hard or what I would look back at and go, I cannot believe that I interacted with humans while I believed this thing. And like that, that. [00:25:42] Speaker A: I mean, that's so many of those moments. [00:25:44] Speaker B: Wild, you know, And I. Marie Kondo is the one who talks about, you know, what stays, what goes and like thanking the thing before you throw it out for its service or whatever. And I think that I, as cheesy as that is, I do think that that's important because you had to be upfront about the things you did while you were trying to figure it out. [00:26:06] Speaker A: That's right. [00:26:07] Speaker B: And you have to come to terms with those things. And working through that, I think is one of the best ways that we can go. Okay. Like, maybe, maybe this thing was really helpful to me and really important for me when I was such and such age or when I was going through such and such thing. But now I don't know that I need it anymore and I think it needs to stay here. And I. And that is okay to do. It does. We don't have to just toss everything out and say, well, the heck with it, we're done. [00:26:37] Speaker A: Yeah. No, I think that's really great. I hadn't even thought. I didn't. I wasn't in the Marie condo phase. I think it would have stressed me out. [00:26:46] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. 100. Like, I was like, this is not for me. [00:26:48] Speaker A: I think it totally would have stressed me out. But I do like that idea, even as I'm thinking about it metaphorically, of just like thanking the thing. [00:26:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Before or the person. [00:26:59] Speaker A: That's right. [00:27:00] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, and, and look, some people do bad things. Some people believe bad things and teach bad things. And that is also 100% important to acknowledge. But I think for me it was. It was the availability to go, I'm going to pick up this rock. What's underneath this rock? I'm putting this rock back down. [00:27:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:19] Speaker B: You know? [00:27:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. Now this has got me thinking about one of the other metaphors now. I will say, even though we have our Oklahoma, Texas connection. This is so funny. I, I still was kind of like, yeah, but I wasn't. Like, I didn't live in the country. [00:27:39] Speaker B: Okay. [00:27:39] Speaker A: Like, some of my family lived in the country. I lived in town. [00:27:44] Speaker B: Okay. So fancy. [00:27:46] Speaker A: So. Right. Because we have a Walmart. Okay. [00:27:49] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. The Walmarts are an important, like, decider about. [00:27:52] Speaker A: We had like, like the Walmart and so everyone who lives in the country had to come to town. [00:28:00] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [00:28:00] Speaker A: Which the Walmart was like a mile and a half from my house. So yes, was I fancy. The answer, Aaron, is yes, 100% you were. [00:28:07] Speaker B: I should own that. [00:28:09] Speaker A: I do to this day. Reba and I own it together. I don't listen to country, but I do know that obviously Rebus from Oklahoma. So point for Oklahoma. But my point is, now that we get there, I didn't live in the country, but I had, I had cousins who did. And they did controlled burns that you talk about in the book. And so it was like a little familiar to me. I remember kind of like freaking out, driving out the 20 or 30 minutes that it took to get. Because there's not much difference between fancy and country. No, you know, not rural Oklahoma. [00:28:42] Speaker B: Not in Oklahoma where there's no panhandle. You're exactly right. [00:28:45] Speaker A: There's not. There's 20 minutes between. [00:28:46] Speaker B: There's a Walmart. [00:28:48] Speaker A: 20 minutes between Walmart and controlled burn territory. And that's where we were. So. So it took 20 minutes to get out to controlled burn territory. But it used to freak me out as a kid to see the aftermath of it, but also to see it happening because you're just driving down these two lane highways in rural Oklahoma and you look over and it's burning. Like it's burning. Burning. Real life burning. And then after it is black. Yeah, everything is charred. And my cousins, who had more sense than me because they, you know, understood these kinds of things, had no fear about it at all. But I was afraid of everything. And so of course I had fear of these controlled burns. But just like the therapist language or the Marie Kondo language of what stays and what goes. I really appreciated your controlled burn metaphor in this. So I wonder if you would talk about it a little bit. Not just the burning part, but the aftermath. [00:29:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, like, I mean, like our part of the country where we grew up, it does not boast a lot of accessible beauty, is what I like to say. You've got to work for it a little bit. [00:30:07] Speaker A: I need that phrasing. I need that phrasing so much. I will interject momentarily and say my husband moved to central Oklahoma. We met at OU and he moved there from. He did graduate work there after he had lived his whole life in Colorado. [00:30:22] Speaker B: Oh my gosh. Bless his heart. [00:30:24] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, the bless his heart. So I, I need that phrasing. It does not boast accessible beauty. Beauty. [00:30:32] Speaker B: Yeah. So, but I mean, it is a lovely part. I mean, it's, it is beautiful. I love it because I grew up in it. And you know, I, I grew up 10 miles from the second largest canyon in the country, which is Powder Canyon. [00:30:47] Speaker A: Yes. So it's just that canyon. [00:30:49] Speaker B: But it's just not like, it's not as you don't look at it and go, oh, just like Colorado beauty everywhere. But I think it's enormously dry. And we are a tinderbox for wildfires. I think I say this in the book, but I don't remember a boy that I grew up with who didn't either almost start a wildfire or did start a wildfire. That was just something that was very, happened to us a lot. Like when I was writing the book, we had one of the worst wildfire seasons in like a decade back at home. And so, so forestry scientists, right, they observed this indigenous, indigenous practice of a controlled burn or a prescribed fire, which I also love that phrasing. So essentially what it is, if you're unfamiliar, you pre burn the land in a very structured and organized way so that an untended campfire or a lightning strike doesn't cause an out of control and dangerous fire. These, these wildfires, when I tell this to people, they're like, okay, yeah, like a wildfire, whatever. Yeah, I mean, yeah, no, like these, these fields will burn at the rate of a football field a second. Like it's out of control and it's completely devastating to the communities around it. And so there are a lot of reasons that we do those and why we did them. Ranch land, you know, it's going to burn away all the detritus that is like that tinderbox for a fire, for a wildfire that's just going to keep the, it's going to keep fueling it, it will restore habitats, it will help rid the land of invasive species. And my favorite thing about it is that when a, when a prescribed fire, when a controlled burn is finished, you mentioned that it's just completely black. That ash is fertilizer. It is a natural fertilizer and it is going to help new things grow in a more healthy way than they were previously. And I really think that a lot of this process is a controlled burn for spirituality. Like, let's work out these questions and doubts and gets comfortable with them so that when the lightning strikes our little plot of land, whatever that may be, you know, someone gets sick, parents get a divorce, you know, you lose your job, whatever, even like global things that just affect you, you are in the midst of an out of control wildfire in the middle of that crisis, you are not having to necessarily unpack your giant questions while you're also being traumatized at the same time. And I think, you know, that's, that's not always going to be as clean as it is. But I do think that starting that process in a place of peace, in a place of it's okay to ask these questions, is so good and healthy for us so that we are clear minded about the things that we are working through. [00:33:52] Speaker A: Gosh, Erin, that's so good. First of all, just name that. I had to look up Detritus the first time I read it in your book. [00:34:01] Speaker B: I used to call it Detrius, so. [00:34:03] Speaker A: No shame about that. I did. I may have pushed the button on so I could see how to pronounce it. Anyway, and I wrote the little thing. I'm such a dork. I like wrote it out to the side and I was like, oh, she's gonna keep using this. So I had to keep reminding myself what it was. So, anyway, side note, I learned a new vocab word. But this, I think part of what's so helpful, books like yours, conversations like this, culturally, where this is becoming a more acceptable thing to talk about, deconstruction is. Is that because. Because starting the deconstruction process in and of itself can feel very traumatic. Like. [00:34:45] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. [00:34:47] Speaker A: Can feel like the lightning 100%. And then you're, you're paper bagging. I mean, we're mixing all these metaphors, right? You're paper bagging it or plastic bagging it. You're, you're, you're burning all these things at the same time. And so I think that this controlled burn picture is so helpful for me because it allows us to take a step back and say, okay, this isn't that things aren't going to burn, but it can be that we can pull back and say, okay. And for me, not everyone's personality is like this. For me, it's helpful. Like, okay, how, how can I do this? How can the burning part, maybe intentional is the wrong words, I feel like. But it's just like, how can we do this where it doesn't maybe feel so chaotic, where we can look at people around us? You know, I think that's part of it. Yes, we're gonna lose, probably gonna lose some relationships or at least the intimacy level of some of those, because people may not understand where we are. We're in different places now. And I'll say in evangelicalism, A lot of times the belief system, the structure, like having that shared is what makes the intimacy in some of those, you know, places in those contexts. And so if that starts to disappear, then some of those relationships feel less intimate. But just to have this place where you go, okay, this isn't something like me. I don't have to be afraid of this. When this is coming, I can be more like my cousins and say, no, this is actually just part of what happens. We're doing this because we know, my cousin might say, my dad knows that if he doesn't do this and something like that happens, our house could catch on fire. [00:36:34] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. [00:36:35] Speaker A: And so this is actually a protectant for some of these things over here that we know are valuable, that we want to keep safe because. But we know that this is just part of how nature works. It revitalizes itself. It does these things. And sometimes we have to be present for this burn. And they're, they're watched fires. I mean, people are taking care of these. [00:36:59] Speaker B: Oh yeah. What's crazy, I'll never forget the first time I ever saw one. And it was same thing, driving down a two lane highway, you know, fire on either side. And I remember passing by, you know, like, you know, I also, we also lived in tornado alley, so it was a, it was a regular occurrence to see old men outside on their porches just staring at the sky to watch and not go to safety. But it was the same thing. It was just, there were, there were just a ton of people just standing there watching the fire. And I was like, they're going to do anything about that? Or my dad was like, no, that's how they do it. You know, that's, that's, that's bringing these benefits along with it. And so they'll, they have it contained and they have a certain spot that they want it and, and they're going to put it out as soon as it, you know, as soon as it gets to where they want to be. And so I was just like, that sounds wild. That is not what they talked about on Stop, drop and roll day at the, at elementary school. This is not, doesn't seem right. [00:37:54] Speaker A: That was not included in our fire safety for sure. But yeah, I just, I just, I love thinking about that. Like, yeah, just how you put that, how you put that was so, was so great. Um, gosh. Anyway, it just is taking my mind a lot of different places about like this, this is going to burn though. [00:38:12] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Yeah, it is. And it's what I also like about a Controlled, you know, a controlled burn or a prescribed fire is that the burning is the point, you know, like there are things that needed to go. [00:38:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:27] Speaker B: And it's, you don't have to be surprised that it's burning. It is absolutely burning. And there, there's a purpose behind that too. So I think that's an important thing to remember in it as well. [00:38:42] Speaker A: No, I do too. I do too. I agree. Thanks for that. I mean, we've, we've talked around it a little bit, but I'm curious. There are things that need to burn. There's the what stays and what goes. There's the, there's the questions. And I guess I'm curious what you've seen in your faith. Evolution as you, as you moved doesn't necessarily need to be the catalyst like what happened, but like, as you've moved from the spaces where you talk quite a bit about this in the book and I can relate to it, where there's a lot of stuff that's just real binary. You know, it's either right or wrong. It's. It is black or white. It is, it is truth or it isn't truth. You know, those kinds of things. And then moved into some spaces that maybe were more like question oriented as we've talked about, or more nuanced. I think I could, I could tell, I won't here, but I could tell my own story about how some of that foundational stuff remained helpful, but also how some of it really did need to go. But I'm curious how you have experienced some of that. Like how you have experienced some of those foundational mustard carpet, church kind of things as being helpful. And then also how did you begin to realize some of that needed to shift for you? [00:40:22] Speaker B: So I think for me, you know, those binaries, those certainties, catechisms, those types of things, they were developmentally appropriate. And I don't mean that age wise, I mean that spiritually. I don't, I don't necessarily know, like you can't, you can't explain to an 8 year old. And I know this because I've tried that some people believe Adam and Eve were real and it 100% happened just like that. And some people believe that Adam and Eve are metaphors and that both of those viewpoints can have scripture that support them. [00:40:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:40:58] Speaker B: Like their brain, that's a tough self. [00:41:00] Speaker A: Right. [00:41:01] Speaker B: It's not that they're stupid, it's that their brains aren't working in that nuance yet. And so I think, I think that's why some of this is natural. You know, Julian of Norwich, who's my favorite weird mystic, talks about, like, first the fall, then the recovery from the fall, and both are the mercy of God. And I love that because I think it's so helpful to remember that this is. This is normal. Like, 100% this is normal. We see people in Scripture going through this process. We see people that we love and respect going through this process. We just have a name for it now. We've called it deconstruction, but it's been around for forever. And that is something that I think was really helpful to me to kind of. As I was. As I was kind of learning more and going back to the Gospels and going back through church history and history of Christianity to go. None of this is new. Not one of. This is. Not one thing about this is new. The Reformation is a deconstruction. You know, the Great Schism is a deconstruction. I would even say that Jesus and Jesus's, you know, appearance as Messiah was a deconstruction of the Jewish faith. And so I think it's so helpful to remember that. And we're not going to call Jesus not a good Jew, because he was. But he. It was a different lens that he brought to the table to go, hey, you think I'm here to, like, free you from Rome, to set up another kingdom? I'm here for your heart, actually, to set up, like a different kind of kingdom. And so it wasn't that any of it was untrue. They were looking at it the wrong way. We are all looking at it the wrong way. So I think that has been so helpful to me to go. This is a part of what it means to live a life of faith. It's not outside of the norm. It's not crazy or anything like that. It's just a part of it. [00:42:55] Speaker A: I have a. There was a professor I had. Who? You. You. I forget. I was. I should have written down which percentage you use. But it's like the percentage amount of time that we're wrong. This. This guy said he was an Old Testament professor. And he said in our theology. Well, actually, he back it up. He quoted a different professor from our seminary. And he said. And this guy was wrong. And, you know, you're kind of like, what? And then he goes. And he goes, and you know what? You are too. [00:43:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:32] Speaker A: And then he said, and so am I. And then he used a very generous percentage. I think mine is much, much greater. But he said, here's the deal. We're all wrong. [00:43:41] Speaker B: Yes. [00:43:42] Speaker A: At least 10% of the time. [00:43:44] Speaker B: Oh, I have to believe it's more than that. [00:43:47] Speaker A: Me too. But then this is what he's. This is the twist. He said we're all wrong about 10% of the time. The problem is none of us know which 10%. [00:43:57] Speaker B: Yeah, that's absolutely true. [00:43:59] Speaker A: And that's. [00:44:00] Speaker B: That's why I struggle with people who. Who say things like, the Bible is clear. Oh, I want to go. [00:44:06] Speaker A: The Bible is clear. Yellow flag, red flag. [00:44:08] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a red flag for me because I go, we. This is a. An ancient collection of books that are so, like, they say one thing on one page, and then you flip a couple of chapters over and it's saying a completely different thing. So let's not act like we know that our interpretation that, you know, throughout the years of 2000 years of Christianity, that our denomination has got it perfect. [00:44:36] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:44:36] Speaker B: And everyone else is gonna, you know, probably go to a lower circle of heaven, maybe, you know, something like that. [00:44:43] Speaker A: Maybe lower than that. [00:44:44] Speaker B: Maybe. Exactly. You're 100. Right. So I think that's why I, like. That's why. I mean. And part of this is, like, it doesn't. I don't. I don't. I don't address specific questions in the book book because it's not really about what your questions are. It's about coming to terms with the fact that you're not going to get the answers to some of them. And you have to figure out how to be okay with that or not. But that is something that you have to deal with to go, oh, the certainty is what I was clinging to, and that doesn't actually exist where I thought it did. [00:45:20] Speaker A: No, that's so true. Becca McNeil, in her first book, called it certainty worship. [00:45:25] Speaker B: Yes. [00:45:25] Speaker A: And. [00:45:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:26] Speaker A: And I just, like, hate that. That resonated with me. [00:45:29] Speaker B: Oh, 100. Well, it feels safe. It feels comfortable. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but I do think there is something like it needs to be addressed and needs to be noticed. [00:45:39] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. Okay. I'm trying to think. There were so many. I don't want to spoil any of the funny parts. I'm. I'm almost embarrassed at how many like, like, laugh out loud pieces. But also the footnotes. Aaron, I could not handle it. [00:45:57] Speaker B: I thought, I love a Chuck Klosterman footnote situation. [00:46:01] Speaker A: I love. I love. I love a good footnote. I also may have. I don't. Can I even say this? I. I Hollered at my husband. I said, hon, what's the. What's the. Do you know something about a Contra code? [00:46:14] Speaker B: Oh, the Konami code. [00:46:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:16] Speaker B: And he said it, didn't he? [00:46:18] Speaker A: No, he immediately said it. He immediately. He's like, what you mean? And then he did. I was like, oh, my goodness, this is where we are right now. And he's like, yeah, this is. This is where we are. But anyway, so I'm like, I'm trying not to spoil all the things. Maybe where I'll try and, like, bring our plastic bag down back to the parking lot where I'll try to land this plane is because you're. I. And I want to maybe repeat what you just said because I think that it. It's so good for the book, but also for this conversation, for the larger conversation, that even though it does feel like it sometimes and it's not, I know that you weren't meaning to say this, and I. And I'm not either. It's like, it's not that some of these individual things aren't important. It really isn't about these individual questions. Like, bigger part is like, do we have permission to even ask them? [00:47:05] Speaker B: Oh, 100%. Do we have permission to step outside of what we thought the answers were? [00:47:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:10] Speaker B: Permission to change our minds. [00:47:12] Speaker A: Right. [00:47:12] Speaker B: Permission to. To read Scripture in a different way. Do you have permission to understand the words of Jesus in a different way? Yeah, I mean, I think that is. That's really hard, especially when you have grown up or you were youth grouped in a faith that just was like, didn't. Didn't really offer. Hey, lots of people believe this about this, but there are a lot of other really smart people who believe this about this. [00:47:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:36] Speaker B: And that in part, again, that's developmentally appropriate. And I don't know, a lot of denominations are going to be like, well, we believe this. But you know, those guys over there, they believe that. So you could choose which one you want. They don't really do that, but I think it is. There. There. There is a need, I think, for some of us for a permission slip to ask questions and be curious. [00:47:56] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, for sure. So with that in mind, and with the book not being how to guide Praise God or a, you know, we're addressing these individual questions, but I would just say, like, based on, you know, some of the folks who. These conversations you alluded to earlier, you know, these online offline questions, these messages that you get, you've seen a lot of where folks like us are right now, and Kind of where. Where we feel like we've been maybe, and where we feel like we're going. And so I guess. And I think what's been encouraging to me. I'll preface it like this. I think what's been encouraging to me is that when I started asking more questions, I felt like there weren't many people asking questions. It wasn't actually true. [00:48:50] Speaker B: Right. [00:48:51] Speaker A: I just wasn't connected with that. [00:48:52] Speaker B: Sure. [00:48:53] Speaker A: Because my community. That wasn't really. We didn't have permission in my community to really ask that. And so I just wasn't connected with folks who were. But I would say, as someone who has. Has formed some of those connections, who's been privy to some of those connections, like maybe to help us land the plastic bag. Like, what. What would you say to folks if they're like, maybe. Maybe there's. Maybe they're starting this journey or also maybe they're one. They're someone who their best friend is starting in. Oh, yeah. And they're like, I don't know what to do with this. And so I don't. Choose your own adventure. Who would you address? You could address both of them, but. But what would you say? [00:49:43] Speaker B: You know, I think to the person who's just starting out, I think I would tell them that the work, like working out your faith with fear and trembling, however you want the fear trembling to look like it's the work of our lives. Like, the idea of, you know, simply existing with a set of beliefs that has not come under any kind of scrutiny, I don't believe is any way to live our life. I. And it. And let me be clear, it is exhausting. It is frustrating. There is no end point. I think I say this in the book, but there's no. Like, you don't get through the first level Super Mario Brothers and jump on the flagpole and save the Princess, like that. That doesn't exist in the faith life. Like, you don't win. But that is. That's part of this. And I think. I think integrating asking questions into your spiritual practice is so important as opposed to viewing it as like, I gotta get through. I gotta figure out what I think about gay marriage, and I gotta think about what I figured out about women in leadership. And I gotta, you know, biblical inerrancy. Let's talk about that. You know, what's my atonement theory? You know, I don't think. Yes, those things are important, but this is not like a class that you have to go through and there's an end to it. And you have to take a final. And if you fail your final, then I'm sorry, you will not be with Jesus anymore. This is a life of faith. This is a relationship. And so I think what I hope is that they have that practice of having it out with God, that question, that practice of questioning and doubting and wrestling, that becomes a part of who they are in their faith as opposed to something separate that they've worked out, you know, and then they can go back to their faith after they're finished. And then I think to the people who are watching their best friend go through something like this, I would. I would just encourage them to be a presence, to leave the judgment at the door and to offer simply a. Like a backboard, just kind of a sounding board maybe, to say, okay, you know, I'm thinking about this. What do you. Well, okay, like, you know, what about this? And I. I think those types of friendships, those types of relationships, because my husband and I, we went through what I would call our quote, unquote deconstructions in different fate, like, not at the same time. So, you know, when our youngest was born, he was like, I think I'm an atheist. I was like, oh, not great. Okay, let's work through that. And because I. I had not. I always scored very high on the gift of faith and the spiritual gifts, testing. And so that was never really an issue to me. And so about the time that he had come back around, after reading all of his philosophers and all of these things and really kind of coming to a spot where he felt like he could rest in God and in the mystery, it was my turn to go. And so we were like, well, great. And hope. I hope this works out. But it. You know, I think. I think just being there for someone, asking questions with them and leaving a judgment, I think. And even when. And I think this is really hard. I see this a lot with parents, not my parents, but I. I see this a lot with people who grew up in faith, is that their parents feel like anytime they're, you know, they change their mind on something, that's an indictment to whatever they believed beforehand. And, you know, it's, oh, well, I didn't do a good job, or, I'm so sorry that I, you know, instead of just going, hey, I. I hear what you're saying, and I don't necessarily view that as an indictment on my character or how I raised you. And so I think that is what is difficult, too, to go, well, I'm not gonna. It's. It's the same thing as, like, when you parent your own kids in front of your parents. And the things that you do differently, they're like, well, what? We didn't do that. Why are you doing that? And it's like, why? I don't think that that was a great idea what you did, or I'm just choosing to do it differently. Those are two completely valid things to say. But. And it doesn't have to necessarily be because you were wrong. It can be because I just want to do it a different way or I have different ideas and other things have influenced me to make me want to understand this in a different way. [00:54:11] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's, I think that's really great, Erin, and I appreciate you sharing about you and your husband too, because that has been one of the things that's been rolling around in my head is that when we go through this, this at different times than the people, other people in our lives. But also, as you mentioned, like, this isn't. A lot of people our age are hitting this, you know, now and have been for a few years and will, you know, for a few years also. But as you mentioned, like, this is not, it's not like an age thing. We don't, it's not like a develop, you know, it's, it's a, it's where it's a, it's a faith development thing. And it just, and it just looks very, you know, it just looks very different and it looks different for everybody. And so. Yeah. So I appreciate you sharing that too. Oh, my goodness. I feel like we, I mean, we could almost do a part two and we say skip the book and we'll just talk about how Oklahoma is Diet Texas, but we don't, you know, but this has been, this has been so great. I'll say the name of the book and everything again and then you can say the release date. [00:55:18] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. February. February 4th. But listen, get those pre orders in because one of the pre order bonuses is the audiobook. And yeah, that's like a secret. I mean, not really. It's gonna come out in a couple weeks, but it, by the time this. [00:55:34] Speaker A: Airs, it will be. [00:55:35] Speaker B: But. And you know, and you also, you also get some other fun things. But that audiobook, that's. I was really. [00:55:43] Speaker A: Did you, did you record it? [00:55:44] Speaker B: I did record it, yes. [00:55:45] Speaker A: That's so fun. I was hoping, I mean, like podcast hosts, like, you would, you know, like that would be a thing. But I did chat with someone the other day who said, an author who said that he did not pass his. [00:55:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. He. They will make some authors, they'll make them audition. And I used to do voiceover work. So, you know, there is. I was a theater major and you know, every once in a while we'll get something that we're works in our favor. Just so rare, though. [00:56:15] Speaker A: And you just grab that. [00:56:17] Speaker B: Yeah, you're like, grab that chocolate chip. [00:56:18] Speaker A: You're like, yes, that's the one. That's the one. Oh, my goodness. This has been way too much fun. I've spent this time with Aaron Hicks Moon. Her new book is coming out on February 4th called I've Got Questions. The Spiritual Practice of Having it out with God. Pre order it. I will also say, I mean, the forward by Sarah Bessie. Listen, that's worth the pre order bonuses right there. [00:56:38] Speaker B: I cannot even handle it. [00:56:40] Speaker A: I mean, that's where I started laughing. I was like, oh, this is going to be good. [00:56:43] Speaker B: She's so great. [00:56:44] Speaker A: This is going to be so fantastic. So, yeah, I loved it so much. Anyway, congrats on it. Erin, thank you so much for spending time with me today. [00:56:53] Speaker B: Thank you so much, Alexis. This was great. [00:56:55] Speaker A: The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show Notes, music and podcast production by Seth Buscetti. Be sure to give us a review on itunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast list listening app. You can also Visit [email protected].