Episode 299 - Philip Marinello

[00:00:07] Speaker A: Welcome to that Makes Total Sense, a podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis Busetti, a Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes eludes us. That makes Total Sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day. [00:00:56] Speaker B: You landed on the Substance. I'm your host, Philip Marinello saying welcome back. We're very happy to have you here at the Substance, we're looking to have conversations that help us all better appreciate goodness, truth and beauty. Previous guests include folks like Issa McCauley, Dr. Karen Swallow Pryor, multi hyphenate artist, Propaganda, Josh Larson of the Film Spotting podcast, and Caitlin Shess. This week I have a returning guest and friend of the show back on after three or four years. It's been quite a while. Alexis Bassetti of the that Makes Total Sense podcast. We had Alexis back on, I believe, in 2021, quite a while ago. I had a wonderful conversation with her. Since then. She's done hundreds of episodes and we've done several. But it was really wonderful catching back up with Alexis and talking about how things are looking, how we are preparing to do the various things that we're engaged in and kind of hope for the future. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Alexis. [00:02:00] Speaker C: Well, Alexis, welcome back. It's great to reconnect after. It feels like it wasn't that long ago, but I'm guessing if we look at it, it will have been a while ago. [00:02:09] Speaker A: No, I checked, like right before we came on. I actually have it pulled up because I was like, when did. And I was like, maybe it was like 2023. Philip, this is 2021. [00:02:20] Speaker C: Wow. [00:02:21] Speaker A: Can you believe that? Four years ago, fall of 21. I mean, almost, I guess like three and a half. [00:02:26] Speaker C: Yeah, three and a half. Little bits changed since then, huh? [00:02:29] Speaker A: O. Oh, my goodness. Can we. I guess we're going to talk about it. [00:02:34] Speaker C: Sure. [00:02:34] Speaker A: Changed since then, but yeah, I mean, it feels in a lot of ways like a different world from 21. [00:02:42] Speaker C: Yeah, it's. It's been very. It's been quite a ride. [00:02:47] Speaker A: It has been quite a ride. At least I'm hoping we're going to talk about that because I. I mean, you've always done this, but recently your show has been a lot of movies. And I'm like, I'm crossing my fingers. I'm Like, Philip, don't ask me about anything movie related because I haven't seen anything. I haven't watched anything. [00:03:03] Speaker C: No, you're fine. So I've had different people say, hey, you should do an only movie show or you should do two shows. If I had an editor now I am doing everything because I lost Trevor and then I had editor Dave for a little while. [00:03:17] Speaker A: Ms. Trevor and Ms. Vince tonight, and. [00:03:19] Speaker C: I lost editor Dave. So now I'm for now, a one man show listeners. If anybody is really great at editing and just loves it and wants to join the team, like, I would love to build the team back up again, but. So I didn't want to go bi weekly. So we're kind of doing like semi weekly. So we're doing like three a month with one off. [00:03:41] Speaker A: That's great. [00:03:42] Speaker C: So that I'm not burning myself out. [00:03:44] Speaker A: Yes. [00:03:44] Speaker C: And then I also wanted to put out more than 26 episodes a year. Like, I didn't just want to do that, but I knew I couldn't keep up with every week. [00:03:52] Speaker A: Yeah, no, it's great. Like, I looked at the recent. You know, I was like, man, he's like, he's like throwing him out there. [00:03:58] Speaker C: Well, and I took like an inadvertent. So we'll get right into partial. This post inauguration, man, I was really just foggy and like family and work and all my other responsibilities didn't stop. But since I am literally the only person on the Substance team right now, the recruiting, guests, scheduling, recording, editing, publishing, promoting, I'm doing all that. Like, it just kind of fell by the wayside for about a month and a half. Just kind of while I recalibrated. But then like literally every day we're getting hit with nonsense after nonsense, but kind of back on track. I've got a few in the can and I think what I'm going to do is two cinema episodes, one regular Substance episode a month, and then either take a week off or if I have a ton of stuff in the can and I'm doing really good, like, I'll put out bonuses, but I'm trying to give myself three a month. [00:04:57] Speaker A: No, that's great. [00:04:58] Speaker C: Just take an off week. [00:04:59] Speaker A: Yeah, that's great. Take a week off. If you have something great, throw it out there. If you have like a really good replay, you know, something that's like, well. [00:05:05] Speaker C: I'm at the point. Man, you're crushing it. Because, like, I was always impressed with your show, but you've done weekly. Like we, we relaunched our show in 2020. Not far away from when you launched. [00:05:20] Speaker A: That's right. [00:05:21] Speaker C: And then we, we went through our, like, a couple of substance iterations that were like, not big delays at all in our feed, but like slight speed bumps. But then we went to bi weekly and you're. You're almost at 300 now. [00:05:36] Speaker A: We are, but this is because this is not a one woman show. So, as you know, because my husband Seth was. [00:05:41] Speaker C: I know Seth is. I. I love seeing Seth's updates. [00:05:44] Speaker A: I. I'm like, he was fixing all of the things. And so it would not be a weekly show if it weren't for Seth. But we have, you know, I mean, of course, just like you. Like, we have family, we've got, like real jobs and, you know, whatever. [00:05:56] Speaker C: You're in school, you got grown kids. [00:05:59] Speaker A: All of the things. And I guess, you know, you just, you have to decide, like, you have, like, what's important on the podcast, you know, like, what. What are the things that we want to do. And a few years ago, so we launched, like you said, so similar timing to your relaunch. We launched in September of 2019. And a few years in, I said, you know, I think the hill I will die on is a weekly launch. I mean, a weekly. Sorry, not a launch, a weekly drop. Like, I think that is the hill, you know, for now, the hill I will die on. So we do. We have done some replays for sure, because there's just those weeks when you're like, even if I have some recorded, it's like trying to get this thing produced is going to be crazy. So we have done a handful of replays for sure. I try and pick some that I think are relevant because like you said, there's just stuff happening every day. Sometimes it feels like multiple times a day. [00:06:57] Speaker C: Oh, many times. Good lord. [00:07:00] Speaker A: I mean, I mean, we could fill a whole show with the things that happened just today, which I deeply don't. [00:07:06] Speaker C: Want to be that kind of show. [00:07:08] Speaker A: Right, right. But it's like. Yeah, so, so thank you. We are. I mean, we're trying, you know, we're out here trying. But yeah, so we try and do that. Try and do it every month. We are almost at 300, which is wild. Again, we had the whole substance crew. We did this, did this in 2021, which I can't believe it was that long ago. [00:07:28] Speaker C: That's crazy. Well, feel free if you want to have a bonus one day and take a week off and do that again. [00:07:35] Speaker A: Yeah, no, this is, this is great. I mean, this is going. We're going to put this in both of our feeds, probably. Right. [00:07:40] Speaker C: Yeah, let's do it. Yeah. [00:07:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. [00:07:42] Speaker C: I'll. I'll put it together and then I'll send it to you for whenever you want to put it out. Yeah, we're creeping up on 200. We'll probably saw that next year. [00:07:51] Speaker A: That's great. And for a while, we had real similar guests. [00:07:54] Speaker C: Yeah, we. Our next Substance episode after this will likely be one that you had not too long ago. Liz Charlotte Grant. [00:08:03] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. [00:08:05] Speaker C: I am glad you new book is so interesting. [00:08:08] Speaker A: It's so great. I'm actually glad you mentioned Liz Charlotte Grant, because earlier when you said after the inauguration, it was just kind of like. [00:08:17] Speaker C: Yeah, her episode. You guys talked about that on that. [00:08:19] Speaker A: Episode because I think it was like. [00:08:21] Speaker C: Is that day or the next day? [00:08:23] Speaker A: It was. Yeah, I think it might have been the next day. It was. It was like that week. And I remember, like we signed on and I was like in a ball cap and sweats and I was like, I am hoping I can do this today. Like, it was just like I, I logged in and was like, I'm just letting you know I'm feeling real low right now. [00:08:46] Speaker C: Like, well, yeah, no, yeah, I mean, you saw our feed. We took a month and a half off after that. Just. Well, and also. So one of our. The episode that I was working on while that was happening was like a topic toss up that I had with former editor Dave. And one of the things we talked about was like, how are we going to like, like postures and strategies and like, how are we going to handle the next four years? And it was just a very, Just a heavy. And it wasn't even super heavy content. It just like felt like a lot. [00:09:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, it is def. It is definitely a lot. And it's been interesting to see different folks deal with it differently. So, like, when I signed on with Liz, she was actually like, she was like dressed and she had makeup and her hair was done and like all this and it's super fabulous. And we, we don't use the video same as your show, but we record it, you know, and it was funny because each of us. I don't think she would mind me sharing it or we talked quite a lot about it on the, on the show, I think. But it was kind of like I came in kind of dragging, like I am feeling grieved right now, whatever. And then for her, it was like, you know, for, for. For different people at different times, you know, or whatever. It was kind of like, this is what I needed to do to even get up is like, okay, I'm gonna get myself ready. I'm gonna do the, you know. And it was kind of like the opposite of kind of how I was feeling that day of like, please don't make me get out of bed. I'm just like, I just want to wear my slippers and my ball cap all day and just blah. And she was kind of more the opposite of like, okay, this is what I have. [00:10:17] Speaker C: Let's get it. Let's, let's get it. Face it. Yeah. And I, I honestly am usually that. But then sometimes on the days where there's like six updates, I'm just like, oh, come on, what are we doing here? [00:10:31] Speaker A: I mean, and then you see all. [00:10:32] Speaker C: The friggin like, I mean, that was a big part of both of our personal stories and like initial launches. And I mean, I always start like three trains of thought at once. Alexis, for listeners who are newer to the show or hadn't listened to your episode, you want to give one or two minute kind of intro of who you are and how you've kind of come to do what you do now with your show. [00:10:59] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. Okay. Yeah. I don't know why I didn't feel prepared for that, but I didn't. I'm pumped to be here, by the way. [00:11:09] Speaker C: I'm pumped to have you back. It's always nice to have a friend back. [00:11:13] Speaker A: Yeah, it's fun. So I, I started my husband and I started the podcast, my podcast called that Makes Total Sense in September of 2019. Our tagline is exploring God's generosity and justice. And so this has been something that I have informally been doing, I would say, in my house growing up. We talked a lot about justice, injustices. We talked a lot. My dad has his graduate degree in political science. And so these were just the kinds of things that we talked about in my house growing up. I grew up, though, in the buckle of the Bible Belt, Southern Oklahoma, small town where these kinds of things were not really discussed. This wasn't really what was, what was on the minds of my church community. And so that was a little bit of a disconnect there, I guess. Fast forward to I graduate college. I have a master's. My first master's degree is in human relations from a public university with a concentration in organizational studies and social justice. And I earned that while I was working as a state caseworker in Oklahoma doing child protective services. And I thought, I, I, I. Part of my story is that for A couple of decades, I would enter into these social justice related spaces and find myself shocked every time that they weren't swarming with Christians. Yeah, I was like, what, what are we doing? Like, I'm. We're here. We've got this office that is providing, you know, tanf and we're doing foster care stuff and adoption. We're doing like, you know, all of these things. And this place is not swarming with Christian workers. I was just, like, really confused by that. But I was really confused by that several times in several different instances in several contexts for decades. Then I started the podcast about less than a year before I went back to seminary, which is something I never thought I would do, and earned an M. Div. @ Fuller. And one of the things that drew me to Fuller Seminary was this focus on justice included in the faith experience. And then now I am still doing the podcast, still talking to folks about the same kinds of things, and have started a PhD program where. [00:14:03] Speaker C: And reading a staggering amount of books for your show. Do you still read darn near the whole book before you talk to your people? [00:14:09] Speaker A: I still read the whole book before. [00:14:11] Speaker C: You talk to people. Listeners. She has a weekly show where she has very substantive and detailed conversations with people where she reads their 150 to 300 page book every week. It's nuts. [00:14:24] Speaker A: It's wild. I mean, maybe not every single week as an author, but close. I mean, we. Yeah, I interview a ton of authors who are all amazing and wonderful and generous people to just come on. I mean, it's like the most fun thing that I get. [00:14:41] Speaker C: It rules. I don't think I've ever interviewed an author without reading any of their book, but there's only a few that I've gotten to read the whole book before we had our conversation. [00:14:52] Speaker A: Well, it's funny too. [00:14:53] Speaker C: So I'm glad, especially if it's a new book. [00:14:55] Speaker A: I'm glad you mentioned that as a podcast host, because it's. It's like, I think, you know, it's kind of like whenever you. You have something that just is not, I don't know, like, it either comes naturally to you or something like that. And then you just kind of think this is just the way it is for everybody, you know, Like, I have a. I have a son who's like, he just has really good body awareness, you know, and he can, like, he can skateboard and he's like, he can ski super coordinated. I mean. Yeah, like, just all of the things. He's a black belt in Taekwondo, you know, and all this. And I'm like, yeah, everybody's body doesn't quite work like that. Like, we don't all have the awareness, but he just kind of, you know, he just does it real naturally. And so I'm like, it's one of those things I just love. I love reading. And so whenever I. I often get feedback from authors who are like, oh, my goodness, it's so great to talk with someone who, like, has some familiarity with my, you know, or something like that. And I'm like, oh, is it. You know, Because I just, you know, think, yeah, this is not. It's not the case for them every single time they talk to somebody, which is like, duh. Because that's. I mean, yeah, we're all just out here doing the best we can. Right. [00:16:03] Speaker C: And because they're PR people, like, the. The people at the publishers who reach out to me, like, we're in both in a nice position. Like, I don't think either of us, like, have people on our show that we don't want to talk to or. [00:16:16] Speaker A: Right, yeah. [00:16:16] Speaker C: Who we aren't interested in. [00:16:17] Speaker A: But sure. [00:16:18] Speaker C: Like, I pick people who I like. I reach out to publishers, say, hey, I see of this book coming out next season, I'd love to get a copy and talk to them. And a lot of times they'll send it to me. Or they'll reach out and be like, hey, we've got somebody to talk to. But I'm sure they're doing that to so many outlets and so many people just want to have content. They'd be like, oh, what's the topic? Oh, this great. Have them on. And then they'll be like, tell us about all of your, like, your area. What is it exactly? I'm sure, especially for, like, long form, like, if you're doing a 30 to 60 minute. [00:16:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:57] Speaker C: Session with somebody and they literally, like, barely read the dust jacket, like, that can be challenging. [00:17:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny. Like, I think of my kids sometimes. I'm really not great with names. And so they're always like, yeah, but that's when you just say, hey, how do you spell your name again? You know, I'm like, yeah, that works. Until the guy's name is John, you know, or thing. But it's like, oh, yeah, what. What's your. What's your area? Tell me about that. Yeah, your project. What is that again? You know, frantically takes notes. [00:17:25] Speaker C: So I. Whenever I listen to your show, I'm always impressed, both as a listener and a fellow podcaster. Just the Work. I really like reading too, but man, the ones that are out for a little while when I. What I do the best with, honestly, because I have a lot of drive time in my job. So if I can be like the fifth, the fourth or fifth outlet to interview them, like after it's been out for a week or two, if the audiobook is out, I can crank through that in a couple days and then have it all down. [00:17:59] Speaker A: Yes. [00:18:00] Speaker C: But usually when I sit down in the evening, if it's not watching a movie for myself or the show or editing a show or spending time with the wife, like, I'll usually read, but it'll be for like, I don't know, 30 to 45 minutes and then I'll go to bed. Like, I'm not cranking through chapters and chapters of like a seriously, like thought out deal. [00:18:20] Speaker A: Yeah, no, it's good. I also like to. Occasionally I don't do this very often, but every once in a while I'll catch an episode where they've already been interviewed with someone else that's already been released and then I'm sure, like, oh, yeah, like, what are they talking about? You know, whatever. So I did that with yours, with KSP way back in the day. Yeah. [00:18:42] Speaker C: I need to have her back. Her new book sounds interesting. [00:18:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Remind me, she does have a new one coming out. [00:18:47] Speaker C: I think it's about work. [00:18:49] Speaker A: Oh, nice. [00:18:50] Speaker C: I believe I could be wrong. I'm gonna cut that out. If it's wrong, I'm gonna check it. [00:18:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:18:56] Speaker C: But I've also talked to her about coming on for some movie ones as well. She's always very like game and open. I just, I need to present her with something and then get on her schedule. And over the last. With all the different things change. That's just been hard. But yeah, she was a wonderful guest. I love talking with her. [00:19:14] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes, yes. [00:19:15] Speaker C: And I've really enjoyed like talking about our faith journeys. Like mine. I didn't have the exact same one you did, but the questions of why isn't the church doing more is something I very much resonate with. And on that note, like, I have really enjoyed KSP's Dr. Karen Swallow Pryor listeners, if you don't know, just her transparency and humility kind of as she's gone through her journey of trying to stay and make it better. Maybe being in denial a little bit and then, oh, here's, here's the good stuff about it. To just, hey, wait. Actually a lot of this is very broken and problematic and like, where do I fit? And I, I really hope she continues to, and I'm sure she will, but I mean, it's just been encouraging to see for somebody of her stature in that world. [00:20:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, No, I agree. She's very, yeah, she's very level headed. She brings a lot of wisdom to the space, for sure. And yeah, I think you may have said it open minded. You know, I just feel like she's, she's someone who is not going to like, beat down someone else's perspective just because it doesn't align fully with hers. And that's refreshing, especially in this age, this culture right now. [00:20:38] Speaker C: Well, and I was thinking about, I went back and re listened to our own Substance episode with Isamacauli on Lent, just because we're in that Lenten season, and was just struck by what he said. And I feel like for the most part, like we were on our way out of that world when the Substance started, but we were very critical and thoughtful about all those things. One of the things Issa said is like, yeah, I just entered public space a lot later and I just knew who I was and the problems I didn't want to have. So I just stayed out of a lot of the areas where I knew I wouldn't be welcome or there would be unnecessary difficulties and kind of carved my own lane. And I was like, that's. That was really smart. [00:21:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I like that a lot. I, I really enjoy Esau's work too. He's doing some great. [00:21:26] Speaker C: Yeah. I need to listen to his memoir that came out a little while ago. [00:21:30] Speaker A: Oh, I don't know if I realized he'd even released a memoir. I love memoirs. [00:21:35] Speaker C: It's memoir, but also a lot of theology in there as well. It sounded great. He. He was working on it two years ago when Lent came out. It's come out and I don't think enough people have talked about it. I was going to reach out to have him back on to talk about that and his children's books. He loves, he loves whenever anyone asks him about his children's books. And his show is interesting now, too. I forgot he's got his own Holy Post show. [00:22:03] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah, that's right. [00:22:04] Speaker C: Which we both have had some of the Holy Post people on before. [00:22:07] Speaker A: Yeah, Holy Post is one that I subscribe to. And if I'm being honest, there are, gosh, the two podcasts that I listen to most consistently right now are New York Times, the Daily, because I really love that show, but also I, like, feel like it's a necessity. And. And that's. Anyway, that's great. We could talk about that if you wanted to. But I like the long form of that. But also, I just. I listen up first. NPR is at first, because I'm like, if I don't get anything else today, I've got like, 15 minutes getting ready in the morning or whatever, and I can know at least the headlines that I need to know today. But as we mentioned, those can change midday. [00:22:52] Speaker C: That's. That's very true. So, yeah, no, I mean, one of the things I wanted to ask you about was in the three and a half, four years since we last had you on, and you've done hundreds of episodes, um, like, what has changed? Like, what have you learned? How have you seen the arc of, kind of the unfortunate downward arc of many cultural and cultural things that unfortunately are tied to a lot of, like, spiritual communities that we maybe used to be affiliated with and the. The new spiritual communities. Whenever I tune into your show, I just love the variety of voices. And I know myself and many others who are like, okay, there are plenty of places in the church where we're probably not welcome and we have no interest being a part of. But that's not the entirety of it. So what has changed and what have you learned and where have you kind of found encouragement in those last few years kind of as quite a lot has changed? [00:23:59] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh, that's such a great question. And I'm. I am fighting everything in me not to shoot questions at you. So just so you know, hey, after. [00:24:09] Speaker C: This, feel free to turn around. That's fine. [00:24:11] Speaker A: I am like. I'm like, okay, I'm sitting in the. My same chair with my same headphones and my same mic, and I am not the host tonight, so I'm. I'm readjusting and recalibrating myself. Okay. [00:24:20] Speaker C: Like, I'll tell you what, you hit it and then feel free to turn it around. Especially if we're putting it on both of our feeds. That's only fair. [00:24:27] Speaker A: Yeah, no, no, it's fine. I'm just like, oh, my goodness. I'm never on the other side of the question asking. But that's. But that's so great. It feels like a hot seat, I think. I think what has been wild for me is so thinking back, we. We chatted in November of 21. I think is what. Is what my feed said. So somewhere. Somewhere around there. And I think prior to that, I think where I was was. I was like, there was a time. And I'm trying to think of all of the elections because help us. There have been so many, it feels like, at this point. But there was. There was this season where I was kind of like, if. If Trump doesn't get elected. And so this would have been after the 2020 election when we talked, but it was kind of like, oh, if Trump doesn't get elected, then, you know, things will calm down. You know, things will kind of cool it meaning in, you know, some of these church community, spiritual spaces, whatever. And I think we've seen, obviously that was not the case. We could see in 21 that that wasn't the case in 22 and 23 and continuing that that wasn't the case. But that really things ramped up in a way that I was not anticipating. But I think people who were more perceptive or had a better understanding of history and the politics probably did foresee coming anyway. And then kind of leading up to this election that we just had in the place where we are now, I think I have. I have found myself. What I've said recently, I've found myself saying this a lot recently is I am continually surprised and I'm irritated at myself that I'm surprised. [00:26:23] Speaker C: Completely resonate with that. Well, and, like, I was one of the ones not, like, in a haughty way. Like, I knew. I felt like things would calm down some, but I was also very skeptical. I was like, feels like the genie's kind of out of the bottle on a lot of it. Like, you can't go. Especially, like, if you're talking, like, November of 21, if January 6th happens. Like, you can't just go back with so many people who are, like, who would claim faith, and not only would claim faith, who have, like, melded their political and religious identities together so hard that not only are they thinking it's okay, like, they're literally putting God's name on so many of these things. And not just January 6th, but that's like, the most. That was at the time one of the most egregious ones. Still is a pretty bad one. But who even knows now, like, all these things, it's like, it's kind of hard to go back to business as usual after they're like, let's overturn the election and hang the vice president. Like, that's. Yeah, that's kind of hard. [00:27:35] Speaker A: Yeah. This is not just going to be Tuesday as usual, when everybody goes back to the Capitol, but a lot of. [00:27:40] Speaker C: People just went back to work. Like, they flew home and then they're like, what? The FBI is investigating me? Like, I was just exercising my rights. It's like people just went nuts. I mean, people have been going nuts, but it's like, it's like, how do we. How do we come together, actually? Not an a, like, trite way, but how do we genuinely, like, forge a future together with people who. Who are kind of on that wavelength? [00:28:08] Speaker A: Well, this is a. I think this is kind of the question of the day. And, and what I have seen from a lot of, I would say, experts in their fields who are also Christians, trying to navigate a Christian space faithfully in the ways that they know how and, and. And with their communities. And they have been saying things that I would agree with, which is, this is very different. So, meaning, this isn't just, oh, is it Bush or Gore? Like, let's have coffee if we're talking. This is Bush or Gore. Like, let's, let's. Let's have a conversation. This is something that we're. But. But this administration is not that. This administration is very, very different. This administration. I remember I was. Again, it's like one of those things. Like, I'm still surprised every time. I don't know why, but I. I follow a few accounts. Okay. I probably shouldn't say this. I follow a few accounts on Instagram of kind of Christian conservative, Christian influencer type people. [00:29:29] Speaker C: Okay. Kind of keep an eye on them kind of. Deal. [00:29:32] Speaker A: Yeah. I just want to keep my finger on the pulse. Yeah. Because I'm like, I realize the algorithms are never going to show me these kinds of things otherwise, and I'm just kind of curious. And these are, like, thoughtful people, you know, all of this stuff. But again, I end up being really shocked. And there have been some messages that have been put out by official POTUS accounts, obviously official White House accounts, where I'm like, these things are egregious. [00:30:05] Speaker C: Like, literally, like, totally nuts. [00:30:08] Speaker A: Totally nuts. [00:30:09] Speaker C: Totally nuts. [00:30:10] Speaker A: Totally nuts. [00:30:11] Speaker C: The frog was boiled a long time ago. People, like, I don't know how we get desensitized. Like, I truly don't know how egregious. Genuinely. Otherwise, like, it's hard because, I mean, there's. There's the historical precedent of, like, how do good people stand by? And da, da, da, da, da. But, like, people I know who are not stupid and who are not like, maliciously evil, how do these people observe? Maybe their algorithm isn't feeding it. Maybe they, like, maybe they're not seeing all of these things, but how are they observing what is happening? And being actively okay with it or okay with it enough to, like, be unbothered. [00:30:59] Speaker A: Oh, I'm talking about people reposting some of this stuff. [00:31:03] Speaker C: And now I've seen that as well. And then, like, worst, you're like, how. [00:31:08] Speaker A: Like, literally how, Like, I'm thinking of one that I saw that was one of these egregious things. I don't remember if it was White House or potus, but it was one of these egregious things that I wouldn't have seen unless it had been reposted. And then it was basically like, you know, kind of like, like one of. [00:31:28] Speaker C: The social posts or whatever. [00:31:29] Speaker A: It's like, you don't have to say it that way. You know, basically, like, you don't have to be such a jerk about it. But also, rah, rah. You know, like, also, this is great. Like, this is good policy. And I'm like, woof. Yeah. I mean, it's. It's so tough. And so I think, you know, the question of, like, how do we do this? How do we. Not some trite kind of unity, but how? I'm like, I. I honestly. I honestly don't know. Because this, what we have going on right now isn't like other times in our country where we can just say, let's just, you know, agree to disagree and let's have coffee. Like, there are very, very serious consequences to just going along with what's happening right now. [00:32:21] Speaker C: Well, and that's the thing too. Like, you don't want to always be at 10 with your messaging because, like, I mean, that's a one, that's annoying, like, practically. But, like, two, you also get tuned out. So it's not. You don't want to use the strongest language every time, but it's like, over. Like, you see all the damage and destruction and like, unnecessary error, and it's not even like, you're like, are they just literally trying to destroy everything? And people who I see who are not multi billionaires and business owners going like, hooray. It's like, hooray. What? What are you talking about? You're not a billionaire. You're not being helped, especially people of faith, you're like, yay. All these. Like, like all the people who are most in need are getting things taken away from them. Yay. Like, what. What in the world are you talking about? [00:33:22] Speaker A: Right? In what. In what universe? And. And the. The messaging always on it. [00:33:27] Speaker C: And all this stuff is forever. Like, I am regularly harassing my Missouri representatives, like, whenever these crazy things happen. I'm tagging them in it and be like, are you guys okay with this? Like, I'm going to assume. I'm looking forward to your statement against this. Or like, like, this is all on the record, guys. Like, you're going to be in the documentary in 10 years. Like, when all this is over. Like, are you really. Are you really cool with doing nothing or supporting this? [00:33:54] Speaker A: Well, my representative. I saw a. Oof. Yeah, Sweet. The other day. I mean, let's not. Right. I mean, like, you're in Texas, Representative. Pick a. You know, our governor, but one of our senators. What? Put a picture of himself. Philip. I'm like, really? He put a picture of himself on social media. I think it was Twitter of him reading the art of the deal. I'm like, all right, we're doing. This is what we're doing right now. This. But yes, this is what we're doing. We're putting a picture of ourselves during our deal messaging. Real quick. I had a thought on that. You can't be on 10 all the time. This. This was hilarious to me. I mean, the. The documentary was not hilarious. The documentary was great. But my husband texts. Does a little. We have a. You know, a few. These group chats with our friends. And he texts one and he. His message was something like, rick Steves out here just doing the Lord's work. And Rick Steves, apparently, in like 2018 or something like that, puts out a. One of his travel specials. You know, as. As he's been doing since. As my husband said before, it was cool to do that. You know, Rick Steves has been out here doing. Doing the travel documentary thing, but he put one out a. A European historical tour of fascism. And so it's like an hour. I think it's like an hour long. And what I loved about it. And I just couldn't help but crack up after I was. I was debriefing with my husband after we had each watched it, and I was like. But what was funny to me is the way that Rick Ste. Steves is like, his expressions. He's just smiling, you know, and so. And when, you know, and so he's. I can't, you know, do his voice or whatever, but he's like. And then as Hitler rose to power, you know, and you're like, oh, my goodness. Like, he's just like. He's smiling. Like, he's telling you about, you know, the most recent cheesecake that he got at a, you know, at a Paris bakery or whatever. And. And I'm like, no, he's just like stating the facts and he's showing the reels as you're saying, like you're. Here they are. Here's the, here's the videos here, here are the books here. You know, here it is. It just. He just lines it all out and, and one of the things that I thought was really interesting in it was that he said fascism. Oh. The guys that he was interviewing is like, it just has very simple answers for very complex problems. And I was like, I mean, does. [00:36:28] Speaker C: That remind us of our religious upbringing? [00:36:30] Speaker A: A little bit perhaps too well too. Yeah. [00:36:34] Speaker C: And that's. I mean. Yeah. The more I go, it's not like I get how they go together. It just is so infuriating and heartbreaking how well they go together. Like intellectually. [00:36:47] Speaker A: I just hadn't even thought about that. [00:36:49] Speaker C: Yeah, no, like the, the people who idolize certainty and strong leaders and like definite clear answers where we are right and the others are wrong. Like it makes total sense how those two things go together. It just sucks. [00:37:08] Speaker A: Yeah, it's those simple. Yeah, I hadn't even thought about that. The simple answers for the complex problems. I mean, I was obviously thinking about, you know, the administration, you know. No, nobody else has been able to solve anything. But it's actually very simple. You know, all you have to do is X, Y, Z. You're like, really? All you have to do is just shut down the Department of Education. It's fine. [00:37:27] Speaker C: You know, it's actually all you have to do is like tariff farmers into the ground. [00:37:32] Speaker A: That's right. It's fine. It's very simple. And there's, you know, all the leaders. [00:37:35] Speaker C: RFK in charge of healthcare. That'll be cool, right? [00:37:39] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that'll be great. And none of the leaders before could do it because they were all. They were over complicating it and making, you know, whatever. But it's really, you know, quite simple. But I think, uh. I don't even want to think about that bridge. I don't even want to. [00:37:54] Speaker C: Sorry. There. Yeah. Opened up Pandora's. Yeah. Like that's something I've thought about a lot and it's just so heartbreaking and annoying. But anyway, what do you think? Okay. [00:38:08] Speaker A: You said I could turn the tables. [00:38:09] Speaker C: Yeah. Turn around. [00:38:10] Speaker A: I mean. But you know, what, what do you, what do you think? And I will preface this by. By telling about an experience that I. That I have kind of semi regularly. So. But my question is how do, how do we, like, how do we come together, faith communities and things like that? Because I'M trying to tell you that white American evangelicalism has a. Has a problem. They have a. They have a deep. They have deep problem. I was listening to a podcast the other day where they. They called people triple trumpers, which I had never heard that term before, but, like, 16, 20, and 24, right? [00:38:52] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, I hadn't heard that term, but I was like, oh, yeah, Especially the people who. I can. A teeny bit. I don't forgive the first one exactly. But, like, I can get how you'd be swindled. But the second time, after four years of the, like, we have the receipts of, like, the dumbest stuff being like, I'd like more of that, please. [00:39:18] Speaker A: I'd like more. So my question. So that's my question. But I will say this. This has been my experience, and I'm gonna. I'm gonna try and say it because it's not. I. I don't. I. I do a lot of, like, internal processing, so I haven't externally processes very much. But in. You know, we already said earlier that I live in Texas. I live in Houston, though, which has typically, generally goes blue, but it's not the whole city. So there are parts, definitely in my part of the city that are pretty red. So for a while, I was, you know, driving my youngest to elementary school in the mornings, and I would pass by some houses that were. Had a lot of Democratic signage in their yards, and then some that had some very, very red signs in their yard, including one. And I'm. I'm saying this as a. As a mixed Hispanic, as a Mexican American, I would say this. I. Including one that literally read, stop the invasion. Secure our borders. Right. So it's got signs up for Trump, obviously, any other red, you know, folks that were on the ballot. And then it's got stop the invasion. [00:40:35] Speaker C: Yikes. And, yeah, it's, you know, totally normal, totally historically unbothered. Like, there's no historical baggage to that slogan. [00:40:47] Speaker A: Nothing like that. So every time. And then. And then, of course, my cynical self, I kind of look at it and I say to myself, thank you. Like, thank you for putting that out there, you know, and. And I get that this is like a binary way to look at it, but it's hurtful. But then I think, but there are a lot of folks, and I. And I know them, I grew up with them, I've been to Bible study with them and all that. That might say a similar thing if someone, you know, I had Harris stickers on my vehicles, and they might look at that and Say to me in their heads, well, thank you. You know, thank you. That now I know kind of everything I need to know about you or what sure. Person you are, because you would have the audacity to put something on here. You know, I would. I will say I'll throw this out there because, you know, because Harris made reproductive rights a pretty big part of her campaign. And that is something that historically we. You and I could both do the. Do the math on that and go back in the history of when that became a thing for white evangelicals. But they might look at that and basically say, I know what I need to know about you because you have a, you know, a Harris sticker on your car or whatever it is. And so I just think, like. And then I stop myself because I think. But I don't really know everything I need to know about that person by this. But at the same time, the stop the invasion sign is pretty hurtful. So those are some of the things that I struggle with that I don't have answers for. So I ask you, and maybe even if you have anything in your context that would be helpful, you know, you're in Missouri. I think I'm like, middle America. This is. I mean, there's. [00:42:31] Speaker C: I mean, yeah, can. Casey is super diverse. [00:42:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:37] Speaker C: Like, there's a lot of. Yeah, no, there's a lot of all sorts of stuff here. Like, there's a lot of progressive people, There's a lot of wonderful nonprofits, but it's also middle America. And like, it's such an interesting mix because with my job, I'm in sales and marketing. I'm in a number of chambers of commerce. I'm rubbing shoulders with all sorts of people. Business owners, sometimes elected officials. Like, I'm. I'm around people who are of influence. And it is really interesting to see. Like, I. Because, I mean, I. I know a lot of times the way people talk, like sometimes that does happen to me. Sometimes people are just off putting and I can be like, yeah, like, I don't really need to mess with you. But I would say on a more like, personal, relational level. And this kind of goes back to the episode I had with editor Dave that took me a month and a half to edit. Like, I genuinely think that with individuals like your normal everyday person, like, not a CEO, not a politician, not somebody who's trying to like, gun for one of the top spots on the side of oppression, like a regular person. We live in not like a super poor area, but we live. We decided to buy a house and then Covid hit, and then all the houses in the nice areas, like, tripled in value. So we moved to a town in Missouri that has more affordable stuff. There's a lot of great stuff here. But I'll say that our best neighbor, kind of in our group of houses, he had some rugged signs and flags. Like, when it was, like, when the election was getting hot and ugly. Like, he had some profane and ugly stuff up on his car and on his flags. But, like, literally anytime we needed anything, he was there. Sometimes he would mow our yard without, like, I never asked him to do anything, but sometimes he'd be like, hey, like, I know you're working a lot, like, and I'm already on my riding mower. Like, I'll come and I'll mow your yard for you. Like, he's our best neighbor. So, like, I think there's a lot of hope on the individual level when we can kind of take rhetoric out of it. And I'm personally not an organizer, and I really, really, really kind of don't want to be. I'm happy to, like, platform others and I mean, I'll do what I need to do. And I. I feel like with my makeup in the net, who knows what's going to happen in the coming years and decades. I really don't want to run for or do anything, but, like, I think holding the higher ups accountable, not being super and you don't need to be wins, like, being winsome is not the number one goal when people are. Are promoting and doing evil things and harming people. On the other hand, like, you also want to try to have your message heard as much as possible. So it's. I kind of feel like there's a bit of a balance, but I think it's regularly and doggedly attacking the, like, structures and the people holding up the structures of these bad things while trying to be as loving and relationally open as you can to the people who have kind of fallen under the influence of these things. And it's definitely not easy all the time. And I wouldn't just say that patently. Like, if somebody's like, oh, my family member, my neighbor, my co worker is like, super duper maga and obnoxious. I'm not saying, oh, like, really try to be their best friend. Like, I'm not saying that. But, like, be kind where you can, like, don't give them, like, don't make it personal. And that's something that on the other side, like, don't always make it, like, oh, they are evil, they are stupid, they are terrible. Like, there are definitely evil, stupid, terrible people out there who are running these things, but a lot of the normal citizens who are going about their days, working their jobs, trying to take care of their families, all that stuff, like, they have a really, really bad informational diet. And usually yelling at somebody is not a proven way to help them change that. So I'm more hopeful that I'm not hopeful usually. I mean, depends on like, the deluge of negative crap I read. But I do think that. And that's kind of the. Our, like, little slogan at the substance has changed a couple times over the years. And now it's something like, like, promoting conversations around goodness, truth and beauty. Like, we're not trying to beat people over the head with dogma or theology or a point of view. It's, it's, it's putting, like inviting somebody to consider the, the good, the true and the beautiful. And I think you can do that in a lot of ways relationally. And I, I really do try, like, practically, like, with me and my online presence and in my. In person. I kind of don't care what people think about me sometimes for better and worse, like, my wife and close friends sometimes la at it. Like, I kind of. What do we. I forget what their joke is about. But yeah, like, I, I kind of don't care, like, for better and worse. So I don't try to upset people. Like, I don't usually, like, try to get spicy and like, start conversations where there's going to be disagreement all that often. But, like, when people say things, sometimes I'll just, like, ask them a question. Because a lot of times they're in such echo chambers where they're not thinking, they're hearing things and then repeating them. So sometimes when I feel like it's not crazy tense, like, and I'll hear someone say something like, I'll just ask him a question. Like, this is. This is a real thing that happened. I don't know if you remember several years ago if this was a national thing or if different certain cities had it, but do you remember when. And I'll be general, I'll be vague with this story, but do you remember when there were the fake stories about teachers putting litter boxes in classrooms for students that identified as animals? Like, this was like a fake story and all these MAGA senior citizens were getting angry about it. But I was at a gathering with a lot of people, a lot of people we knew, some people we didn't. But who. Where my Wife and I were definitely in the minority ideological wise there. And one of the person who was closer to my age range got on. He's like, oh, did you hear about all these, like, litter boxes they're putting in classrooms? He's like, they're even doing it here in Kansas City. I take out my phone and I was like, oh, yeah, like, what's, what schools are those in? And immediately goes, maybe it's not a true story. I don't know. Who knows? Like, literally, like, he was, he was furious about, right, this, like, ideologies that were being catered to. That was just sickening. And literally I was like, oh, where is that happening? Just because I was going to check. And he says, I don't know, maybe it's not happening. Like, so I think that there is a lot of power in like, like pushing back with curiosity and like, humility. [00:50:39] Speaker A: No, I'm glad you mentioned curiosity. I think I have been, because a. [00:50:45] Speaker C: Lot of them have never had this. Like, they know the things, they can repeat them, but they've never had to explain them. [00:50:51] Speaker A: Right. And, and I've been like, trying to cultivate that in myself because I'm like, generally a curious person. But when things kind of irritate me or I feel like, you know, I'm on the right side of some issue and somebody comes at me and I feel like, you're definitely on the wrong side of this issue. My, my curiosity, like, gets shut down, you know, I'm like, actually, I have no questions for you. I'm like, no, this is what I do. I ask questions like, how do my questions disappear, you know, when, when that comes. I, I had a conversation with a professor. I've, I've never had him in class, but I met him on campus a year or two ago and I'm trying to think now if he's. I don't remember his specialty. I don't think he's from the psych school, but maybe he's leadership or something. And he just, I, I would say something and he just said, say more, say more. And so I just borrowed that from him because sometimes I'm like, I, I don't really understand anything that you just said right now. And sometimes in my head it's like, I don't understand how you could say any of the things that you just said right now, but say more. Like you said, like, well, like, which schools. You know, it's like that sometimes it can like, shut it down like that of like, oh, yeah, I actually don't really know and then sometimes you end up figuring out if it's a really kind of deep held conviction for someone, like, where did that thing come from? You know, like, they might engage with you on that of like where, you know, where something came from for them. Sometimes I agree with you. Often it is we just repeat what we here. But sometimes it might be there's like something behind that. The other thing that I keep, try to keep in mind when I'm thinking about like this unity piece or the relational piece or the door, the, the, the, you know, sign in the yard doesn't say everything I need to know. So I appreciate you telling me about your neighbor. That was great. I've seen, I've had similar experiences and also seen similar experiences that just, I love it and they blow my mind. But something I also keep in mind is a lot of people, and I would say probably for the most part, people like you and I and maybe some of our community around us, we're like, not the norm. And what I mean by this is all of us are just like, we're trying to just like get from A to B. We're like feeding our kids and hanging out with our family and doing this kind of thing. And truthfully, I have to remember sometimes that this kind of thing, like keeping up with politics and you know, some of these like real nitty gritty current events, like, it is just not of interest to. [00:53:50] Speaker C: It's so much easier to like, yeah, it's so much easier to not ask the questions because it's a lot of work to be like, what are, what are the arguments? Who's saying what? Like, and now purposefully, a lot of very bad actors have made it purposefully, very hard to like, find primary sources or once there is a mass of people who just have a thing in their head, it is near impossible to prove it to them that it's not true. It's very easy to like, to plant an idea in someone's head and very, very hard to like, take that idea out. [00:54:31] Speaker A: Oh no, it's, it, it, a hundred percent is. And, and you know, I'm like, probably. I mean, I think NPR is great, but a lot of people, it may not be their first preset, you know, like, for me, it's my first preset. And like, for a lot of people it's just not, you know, like, and, and I think like, there's no shade, you know, when it comes to that. Like, I have, you know, I, I often on my podcast will talk about conversations I've had with my dad, like, NPR is probably his number one preset. My mom is not going to be offended that I'm telling you, she will never have it on NPR unless she's in the car with my dad. She's not interested. She's not looking at it. [00:55:07] Speaker C: I get it. Like, life is hard, like, and all these things are making our lives harder. And I understand why many people would be like, you know what? Like, I don't really want to spend my time where I'm not working or trying to feed myself for my kids. Like, diving into that and thinking deeply about that. Like that. That makes total sense. [00:55:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:55:28] Speaker C: As it were. [00:55:30] Speaker A: What else you got, Philip? [00:55:32] Speaker C: Well, I mean, it's been quite a while since I've had you on, and I have listened to. I've listened to a handful of your shows over the last few years. I would love to hear, like, what are some of the standout moments or guests or resources from your guests that you're like, this could potentially be an Alzheimer. Or I would really commend this person or their work or even just, like, if somebody shared, like, a little insight from some of their work. That's really stuck with you. What are some things that have stuck with you over the last few years since we've talked? [00:56:08] Speaker A: Oh, gosh. [00:56:11] Speaker C: You'Re reading a book a week, so take a second. [00:56:13] Speaker A: If I am, I am. Let me think. So one of them, I would say Karen Swallow Prior. She was. She came on the show. Now, I'm almost as bad with book titles as I am with people names. So we can. I mean, I'm sure we can look up Brachado and put it in there later. Right. We'll put it in the notes. But she came on to talk about. She had a book on, like, evangelical values and how a lot of them basically have come from this, like, Victorian, you know, set of values. [00:56:47] Speaker C: That was really the evangelical imagination. [00:56:50] Speaker A: There you go. Something like this. Right. Evangelical imagination was so good. Right. And I think for. For me, that one. So I have maybe three. So that's. That's one. The reason for that one is that it helps us understand that the things that we have just assumed always were. Have origin stories in our faith. And I think that is. That is super important because in the kinds of faith cultures that I know, you and I have been part of it different. Different times in our lives, in different contexts. A lot of things, like you mentioned earlier, there's certainty, but a lot of things are just kind of presented as this is the way it is, you know, and. And A lot of things come back to this is the way it is. And that it's kind of similar to the conversation we're just having about news. And it's like, this is the way it is. Because the Bible says that. And you're like, a, the Bible doesn't actually say that, you know, and then B, no, it's not. It was that way because these were the cultural values that we inherited from something that didn't even have anything to do with faith, but we just melded them together. And so I think that what Karen's text and that episode really, like, shines a light on some of the things that we, like, think have always been in, you know, in our faith. And then there, you know, we can see, oh, this actually had a starting place. And that doesn't mean you have to drop it, but it also doesn't mean you have to keep it. I think you can make an informed choice based on, where did this come from? You know, do I want to keep this or not? You know, it's like I was having a conversation with another guest recently about, you know, or I was. Maybe it was one in one of the books I was reading. It's like, you. You might have some of these things in your house, and you're kind of like, I don't really know where this came from, but I like this. Or I don't really know where this came from, and I didn't. And then you get to make a choice. It was actually a conversation at school, but it's like. But then you get to make it. Then you get to make a choice. And you can make a more informed choice if you kind of know where those came from. So I think this is totally off the top of my head, but that would be one for sure. Another one, I had an author on Houstonian named Fu Liu, and again, cannot remember the title. I'll get you these, Philip. But he talked a lot about Eastern Christianity and Eastern Christian thought, which I'm. [00:59:25] Speaker C: A lot more interested in learning about. It was always painted to me as something spooky and bad growing up. [00:59:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, right. And I think. But it's kind of the same reason. But just take it back further in history than the. Than the Karen conversation, you know, is like, you know, we have all these things that we've assumed in Western Christianity. These are the things. And then you go, oh, yeah, but are they. And there's like, this entire world of Christians who actually has a slightly different or maybe very different perspective or paradigm, you know, on this and you know, you could go into, into all of that of like, why do we do things this way? Why do Eastern Christians do things another way? But I really. And we, and we talked a lot about atonement theories in that conversation to. [01:00:12] Speaker C: Trevor would have loved that. [01:00:14] Speaker A: I am, I am not a big fan of PSA penal substitutionary atonement theory. That is not my favorite. And we talked about that with Fulu. But it just gives you a thing. Like I said, you don't have to say, okay, I'm going to leave this. You know, if this is something you really like, something that resonates with you, it's something that helps you connect with God. You know, I'm not saying leave it, but it is interesting to go back and say, but why, why do we think about the crucifixion in this way? Why do we think about atonement in this way? You know, what does the Bible really say about atonement? You know, all of that. So I think that would be one. And then I just noticed a friend of mine, I haven't even told him yet, but I was, I was checking some stuff when I was loading up the episode yesterday for the Drop this week and I was like, oh my goodness. One of my episodes with my friend Colin Cornell hit like number one listens of all time. And I was like, oh, shoot. [01:01:18] Speaker C: Okay. [01:01:19] Speaker A: Right. Yeah, right. You know, because usually I don't know how it is in your catalog, but. [01:01:22] Speaker C: I'm like, I love checking every now and then. Yeah. But sometimes to see which older ones that will pop will. Like, yeah. Like last week we had like, I don't know, a ton of people listen to this random one. [01:01:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:01:35] Speaker C: It's like, I guess some group chat found it. I don't know what I'm always where. [01:01:40] Speaker A: I'm like, did someone just like leave their player on? You know, and then it just like keeps going and going and going and it just like the next. [01:01:46] Speaker C: It is really funny when that happens. It is. [01:01:48] Speaker A: It's like you get this random peak. But. But he came on. So we didn't talk about atonement theories, but he actually has a book coming out in the fall that I'm got a little sneak peek of and I've just started to read. But we had a preliminary conversation about it on an article that he wrote on. Let me see if I can now if I can say it because now I've got the intro to his book in my head, but on the incarnation as reparative work. But he takes another Take and says, like communion or fellowship. So kind of, what is God's work in the world? And our current paradigm from missiologists and theologians like Christopher Wright say, we have this drama, you know, we have a creation, fall, redemption, consummation, and this is it. And so God's work in the world is all based on repair, God's reparative work. But Colin questions that and says, what about the fellowship piece of it? Not that repair isn't a thing, but repair will have an end. Like, something will eventually become fixed. Like it will become repaired. And then what? And so what about God's work in the world as communal as fellowship? Like, God just really wants to be with God's people. So anyway, I've probably really butchered that. Don't listen to that part, Colin. [01:03:33] Speaker C: No, that was good. Like, that is something I think listeners of ours and yours who are still engaged in and committed to somewhat happily, like, forging forward and figuring out their faith identities. Like, I think stuff like that is. Is so valuable and so helpful, especially for people who are raised in, like, you can only think about these things. Like, right, here are the questions. Here are your answers. There you go. Like, faithful Christians around the world and in the past have been asking these questions for a long time. And it is edifying to look at what various people have said about these things. [01:04:20] Speaker A: Right. And it doesn't have to be scary. I mean, I think that's a place where I kind of lived for a long time, was like, oh, yeah, that's. [01:04:30] Speaker C: Where we were told to live. Yeah, yeah, yeah, be scared of getting it wrong or else you're going to hell forever. Like, that really was the threat. [01:04:37] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. And, you know, I mean, there's maybe something scarier than hell, but I don't really know what it is. [01:04:43] Speaker C: I mean, eternal conscious torment for the people who are taught that is pretty unsettling. [01:04:48] Speaker A: It's pretty unsettling. Like, yeah, damnation. And you can't do any. Yeah, it's just. Yeah, it's. It's very. It's very scary. But I think that, you know, entering into some of these spaces and I think you. You hit it is like, faithful Christians have been thinking about talking about these things for centuries. We have some things that we've inherited. We have some things that communally we've forgotten. We have some things that we've put on the side, but it's okay to. To explore those things. Oh, I have one more. Can I have one more? [01:05:24] Speaker C: Yeah, please. [01:05:25] Speaker A: I mean, I have so Many more. Like you said, we're almost at 300. But I had Dr. Amy Jill Levine on the podcast who is a. [01:05:37] Speaker C: Like, you have so many people. Like, there was a time where like, everybody you're on is like, oh, yeah, like their publisher reached out to me or oh, I saw their thing like now. Because I'm still in that world some, but not all day, every day. So I Like your show has even helped turn me on to different people in their works, which is great. [01:05:56] Speaker A: Well, she is one that you need to know. She is a Jewish New Testament scholar. And the way that she describes, I've heard her describe herself, and she did on my show as well, is her words. She said, I'm a Jew, Jew, not a Messianic Jew. So she is not a Christian. She does not profess to be a Christian. But she. Her most recent book that we talked about, Amy, is. [01:06:25] Speaker C: Are you following her? [01:06:28] Speaker A: I don't even know if she's on. [01:06:30] Speaker C: Oh, on the things. Okay. [01:06:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Amy Jill Levine, Lev I N E. She's at Vanderbilt and, um, and she. [01:06:40] Speaker C: Might not be on Instagram. [01:06:41] Speaker A: Then. She. Yeah, she. I think it's called Jesus for Everyone. Uh, so she does a. She does a lot of work around Jesus. She's a. Yeah, she's a New Testament scholar. Um, so obviously she does a lot of work around Jesus. She does a lot of work around first century Judaism. And one of the things that she often says, and this is like a whole different tangent that we don't have to go down, but I think it's an important one just to throw out there is she often says you don't have to make Judaism look bad to make Jesus look good, which is something that we see in Christian circles a lot. Like, if you want, like, if you want to like clickbait. If you want to like, you know, ruffle some feathers, like, or, or even if you don't, you're just a preacher who is used to hearing these kinds of things. You're just gonna call somebody a Pharisee, you know, and it's like, that's gonna make somebody, you know, like, check themselves and all this stuff. You're like, okay, calm down. Like, calm down. Because it's really, you know, it's. It's anti Jewish, it's. It's anti Semitic, these kinds of things. There's a lot of other examples. But one of the things she also says, and I would say, you know, we can. This is a word for the Christian progressive left is, you know, we're out here Trying to make Jesus a radical. And, and she's like, yeah, Jesus was in his context of first century Judaism. So again, you don't have to make Judaism look bad to make Jesus look good. The things he was doing was not out of the realm of the context that he was living in. But we don't see that. We don't know that because we, we don't understand the history of first century Judaism and, you know, all these kinds of things. But she, you know, thinks Jesus was a great guy, good teacher, you know, all this kind of stuff, did great things, but just helps. It helps us. I think she talks to Christians a lot, you know, helps us put it in context. She did a Theo ed talk. I'm trying to remember. It was one of those. One of the TED off branches, I think, offshoot. And it was on. On basically what we were just talking about, like this eternal damnation, this idea of eternal damnation. But she starts off by telling, you know, a story in that. In that episode or in that. And that talk of, you know, how that had happened to her. She's really a hilarious woman. So she tells this very sad story in a very hilarious way about, you know, how, you know, she had dated a Christian whose parent had basically damned her to hell because she was Jewish. And. And, you know, and then she kind of goes and talks about the sheep and the goats and all this stuff, but as a, but as a New Testament scholar. Anyway, it's fabulous and I'll. [01:09:50] Speaker C: Interesting. [01:09:51] Speaker A: But anyways, but she is really. She's really great. The episode with her. She's a wonderful teacher. And so that was really fun to have someone on the podcast talking about Jesus who is not a Christian. It was great. [01:10:09] Speaker C: I like that a lot. I look forward to listening to that one and maybe checking out her book if there's some audiobooks there. [01:10:16] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure there probably is. But yeah, it was, it was, it was a great one. She in that book covers a lot of kind of current topics on kind of like almost like a what would Jesus do? How would Jesus, you know, approach? But yeah, but she covers some of the, some of the current topics that are floating around culturally these days. And yeah, it was great. [01:10:39] Speaker C: Well, yeah, I will, I will try to find the links to those specific things and put some of those in the show notes there. [01:10:45] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I mean, there's a million more. So those are just the ones that come up the top of my head. [01:10:51] Speaker C: So that's. Our final segment is Substance Shout Outs. And we kind of half did it there. [01:10:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:56] Speaker C: Is there anything that you are reading, watching, listening to outside of that, that you've either been edified by or just really found fun and enjoying that you want to say, hey, check this out. [01:11:10] Speaker A: Okay. Yes, I have. I'll say the three shows that we're watching right now, I love it because, well, it's not a movie, so, you know, maybe it'll be kind of close. But also because my. My husband and I can't agree on entertainment at all. And so we. This is like. We've been married more than 20 years, and so this is always a challenge. So first is kind of a gimme that we. Abbott elementary has been in the rotation since it's been on. [01:11:42] Speaker C: Love it. [01:11:43] Speaker A: I love. I love Abbott so much. I was, anyway, cracking up last night. I just. I love every character. I love everything about it. [01:11:53] Speaker C: Yeah. I feel. I don't know, maybe we've always had one or two good ones, but I feel like the ensemble comedy is not something that we have enough of. [01:12:02] Speaker A: Yeah. So this is. So. This is great. So I feel like that's kind of the gimme. Abbott's always, you know, sitting there in our back pockets. We're, like, almost caught up right now on who we watch on Hulu. So that's one. The other one is that I'm, like, embarrassed to say that we are going through it for the first time. [01:12:22] Speaker C: Okay. [01:12:23] Speaker A: So the very first time, we're almost done. We have. We have, like, the last season left. Parks and Rec. [01:12:30] Speaker C: Ah. [01:12:32] Speaker A: Why are we watching this for the. [01:12:33] Speaker C: First time but last season's okay. [01:12:36] Speaker A: Is it. I feel like it goes downhill. I mean, it doesn't, but there's a lot of shows. [01:12:42] Speaker C: An unnecessary. There was, like, a big time jump and, like, for, like, a joke. I feel like the last or a good chunk of the final season is, like, half set in the future, sort of. It's just kind of odd. [01:12:56] Speaker A: Weird. [01:12:58] Speaker C: It's a great show. It's one of my favorites for, like. [01:13:00] Speaker A: A weird one like that. But also, we had watched, like, maybe two or three episodes. The last time I was out in Pasadena at the Fuller Campus, someone was like, you know, oh, my goodness, whatever. Because it's the. The town hall is the facade of the town hall in Pasadena, which, of course, I've walked past a bazillion times. And now whenever I look at it, I can't stop. I'm like, oh, my goodness. Yeah. So. So Parks and Rec again. I. I love Chris Pratt in Parks and Rec. [01:13:29] Speaker C: I loved him in that Show. [01:13:31] Speaker A: I can't see. Stop. Like, he is just. He's my favorite. Like, I will. I will look over my husband, who is, like, generally not quite, like, as super expressive as I am. Like, I'm looking over, and there will be moments where he's just, like, tearing up, you know, because he's laughing so much at Chris Pratt. So that's one. And then Segue from Parks and Rec. Like every other American my age, probably, we are watching Severance. [01:14:02] Speaker C: I was wondering if that was going to come up. Okay. I need. I need to catch up. [01:14:06] Speaker A: No. So this is what happened for us with. With Severance, because, like I said, we cannot watch anything together. It's been this way for 100 years. We've gone through different seasons, you know, when, like, cooking shows were the thing. Like, there were a few that we could find Bake Offs of Fun easier, you know, stuff like that. Yeah. When travel shows were big, we used to do that, you know, but we just. Anyway, we can't part. I will tell you what the difference is. I think you'll appreciate this. As an entertainment guy, what we have identified, and we did this years and years ago, is what we identified is that my husband, in entertainment, in basically all forms, book, movies, whatever, TV shows, likes escapism, and I like real life. And so it is very difficult for us to find something that we. [01:14:51] Speaker C: Yeah, we're kind of opposite. My wife and I are kind of opposite. Yeah. [01:14:54] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:14:54] Speaker C: I like both. I like escapism, but I also. I don't know. I like a full experience. [01:15:01] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's. It's a very. It's. It's a very odd thing. So it's very difficult for us to find something together. So I was probably around the first of the year, like, going through the budget, and, you know, you get. You have, like, all these subscriptions, right? Everybody has all these subscriptions to pay for. And I'm like, we have not watched one thing on Apple since Ted Lasso. I'm like, why am I still paying. [01:15:21] Speaker C: Recommendation here for shrinking if you haven't? [01:15:24] Speaker A: Okay. Everyone says that my husband couldn't do it. And so I was like, I think I probably could have, but. Yeah, he could. [01:15:29] Speaker C: He watched one episode, Petty and Real. Because, I mean, it's about therapists, and they do deal with it, but it's very funny. [01:15:35] Speaker A: I. I thought I could do it. He watched one episode and was like, no. So I was like, we haven't. I was like, we literally have not watched anything on Apple since Ted Lasso. Why am I still paying for Apple tv. Like, this doesn't. This makes no sense. This is dumb. So I literally cancel our subscription to Apple. We're laying in bed, my husband's on his phone, and he says, oh, my goodness, everyone's talking about severance. I think I would like to watch Severance. And as I was canceling the subscription, you know, eight hours before that, of course, what comes up on the main Apple TV page? An ad for severance. And I'm like, I could totally watch Severance. And so then I'm like, well, crap, now we have something that we have independently said we could watch. [01:16:18] Speaker C: We've got to watch 8.99 or 9.99. [01:16:21] Speaker A: That's exactly right. So, you know, I had a few days left before the subscription was going to lapse, and I said, why don't we try it this weekend? We have a few days if we'll watch the first episode. If we think this is something we could get into, then I'll undo the cancellation or whatever. So we're not caught up yet. They just lot. They just dropped the season two finale. We are not quite there yet. I will say this. It is. It was very slow for me. So that is what I've been hearing. [01:16:51] Speaker C: From people who are actively watching the second season. That's. That is the feedback I've been hearing. But I have heard a lot of people say the finale lands the plane. Well, but that is kind of hard if you're watching a show going, where is this going? [01:17:05] Speaker A: I hope so. What? Part of what it has been. And I'll wrap this part up. Part of what it has been for me is a. That my husband enjoys it so much because it is, you know, sci fi. And so he really likes it. And the parts that creep me out because it is creepy. I mean, it's for sure creepy. [01:17:20] Speaker C: Surreal. [01:17:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't. Yeah, I don't love creepy, but I have been cracking myself up, like, for the whole first season, I cracked myself up. Like, every time we ended an episode, I was like, the writers have no idea where this is going. I would just tell him. I'm like, I'm just telling you. They have. They have no idea. Like, they're. They're. They're acting like they do, but they don't because there's nothing in here that makes sense. And it really wasn't until, like, halfway through the second season, I was like, they might have a clue, like, on one of these lines, but I'm not excited. [01:17:54] Speaker C: Like, I'm excited to dive in One day hopefully get to tell their whole story. And I'll get to it when I get to it. [01:18:01] Speaker A: Well, I hope, I hope you like it. I mean, let me, let me know, I'd be really like, message me and let me know what you think if you get to, if you get to watch it. The last thing I'll say on it is it is, I think the reason why so many people are watching it. Right. Is it is this very intriguing premise. It is a very, very intriguing premise that we've probably all have, you know, it's not, it's not hard to imagine ourselves maybe or you know, something with, with the premise. So yeah, so I'm like every other, like I said, like every other American my age. I'm watching Severance right now. [01:18:37] Speaker C: Well, I will check that out one day. I'll be rapid fire here. We semi recently on the show covered an Iranian film called Taste of Cherry by Abbas Kirastami. And the guest on that episode encouraged me. I've been wanting to independently check out more of his stuff. So he's got a series of like an unofficial, unofficial trilogy around the city of Coker called the Coker Trilogy. And the first film in that is called where is the Friend's House. And I recently watched it and loved it. It is. I, I've seen thousands of movies. I have never seen a movie that mixed like a very like anxious, tense vibe with such like tender hearted sweetness. Like, it's a really. So it's really, it's like the, the movie is an evening in this boy's life where he is trying to return some homework to a friend because if his friend doesn't who his friend who lives in a neighboring village. The teacher like is kind of targeting his friend in the classroom. And if his friend doesn't get his homework done, he's going to get expelled from school. And he accidentally takes his friend's notebook home and he's like, oh, like he can't do his homework now because I have it. So he's like on foot walking to this other town to try to find his friend's house to give him his homework. And it's just, it was a really special movie. I liked it a lot. [01:20:10] Speaker A: Oh, that does sound great. I'm envisioning it right now. I love it. [01:20:14] Speaker C: I think that's on Max and Criterion Channel, if anybody has that. And then I'm listening to Bernie Sanders audiobook Our Revolution. It's very good and frustrating based on our reality that we're living, but it's really Good. Still trying to get Senator Sanders on the show one day, maybe. Who knows? [01:20:33] Speaker A: Yeah, that'd be great. [01:20:35] Speaker C: And then I'm also on my. Well, maybe it's only my second full rewatch. I've watched it all the way through one time, and I've watched various parts of it several times, but I'm doing a complete series rewatch on the Sopranos right now. That's very fulfilling. [01:20:53] Speaker A: I have never seen an episode of the Sopranos. I mean, really hard to say. [01:20:59] Speaker C: It's. You got to know what you're getting into. [01:21:01] Speaker A: Right. [01:21:02] Speaker C: The content is what it is, but it's. It's a incredible show. [01:21:07] Speaker A: Yeah. All in all, classic. [01:21:09] Speaker C: It's. Maybe. I could maybe say it's the best television show of all time. [01:21:14] Speaker A: Wow. [01:21:14] Speaker C: Easily top three, if not the number one for me, but also, like, I kind of think nearly objectively, and that is like, American and British television. Like, I don't know, maybe there's an incredible series somewhere else I've never heard of, but I think it's easily top three things that's ever been done in American television. It's. It's astounding. [01:21:34] Speaker A: What are you loving about it in the rewatch? [01:21:36] Speaker C: In the rewatch, I am because I've watched the first three seasons a number of times, and I watched it all the way through once this time. It's hilarious. It's so funny every episode. There are so many jokes that, like, I remember laughing some when I watched it before, but the writers are so good, and it's so funny. It's a hilarious show. [01:22:03] Speaker A: Do you think you didn't notice as much the first time because you were caught up in the plot? [01:22:08] Speaker C: Like, definitely. Yeah. Because it's very well written, not complicated. It's honestly, see, like, the Sopranos really is about America and family. Like, in the very first episode. It's not a spoiler. Like, therapy is a big part of the show. And the main character, Tony Soprano, like, his dilemma is he feels like he's getting in. Like, and this was actually. It's a very interesting show. Maybe one of a very few, if not the only one. It. It started in 99 and was, like, set in the real world. So, like, there was a Pre and post 911 in the show, and it dealt with very real, like, American anxiety themes. So, like, that was really interesting. But, like, in the very first episode in 99, he's like, I kind of feel like I'm getting in on the tail end of thing and everything is kind of going downhill. Like, I make more Money, like, his dad was in the life. He's like, I make more money than my dad. I have a nicer house than my dad. But, like, the. The loyalty is changing, like, with DNA. Like, we can't get away with all the things we used to, like the country's debt and the wars and all this stuff. It's like. It kind of feels like, what's even the point of any of this anymore? And, like, that was in the pilot episode. So it's very much about, like, the American experiment, but also with a lot of fun crime drama as well. [01:23:40] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. I feel like you. You sold me on the Sopranos, maybe in part because I actually graduated high school in 99. So I feel like thinking it would be, like, real life. I'm like, that's like, the kind of the beginning of my adulthood. I wonder how I would relive that now, you know, 25 years later or whatever. No, that's. [01:23:58] Speaker C: Yeah, it's. I've always loved it. I mean, being an Italian American, there's a lot of the show that has sentimental value to me in ways, and especially now that, like, Jim's gone, like, that's just kind of. Every now and then, that'll just hit me. Like, he was an incredible actor, and, I mean, he's. He did great movies, like, James Gandolfini made great movies, but with Tony Soprano, he put, like, 86 or 87 hours on screen, like, his best. Like, you have a movie that's two hours, and maybe he's in, like, 70% of it. Who knows how much screen time he has? He has. Like, he's in. He's a lot in every episode, and there's like, 86 or 87 episodes. So, like, it's just so massive. But, yeah, it's. It's wonderful. I love it. I'm. I'm enjoying it very much. [01:24:50] Speaker A: Good deal. [01:24:52] Speaker C: Well, Alexis, it was great having you back. [01:24:54] Speaker A: Thanks. [01:24:55] Speaker C: You're welcome back anytime. And feel free to send me Rex from. I mean, you're doing weekly guests. Anybody you think that I would be interested in or. Yeah, jive with that would be great. [01:25:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I will do. Yeah. I'm kind of trying to wrap my head around these next several recordings that I have coming up, but. But now that I'm like, oh, the op. The offer is there, the opportunity is there, then I will definitely keep you in mind and. And send some things your way, if I think it would. Yeah. Jive with the substance. It's great. [01:25:31] Speaker C: Well, yeah, appreciate that. And yeah. Just always good talking to you. [01:25:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me back, Willip. It's so good to be here. [01:25:42] Speaker B: Well, that was a wonderful time catching back up with Alexis. I'll have links to her feeds and her show in the show notes. [01:25:51] Speaker C: Check it out. [01:25:52] Speaker B: Follow her show if you haven't. Really wonderful stuff every week deep dives on all sorts of topics with wonderful, smart and engaged people. So go check out her work. [01:26:03] Speaker C: If you're newer to the show and you haven't yet, like follow and subscribe and such. [01:26:10] Speaker B: If you're not operating a motor vehicle, we'd love it if you opened up that podcast app. [01:26:15] Speaker C: Either hit the five star button or. [01:26:16] Speaker B: If you're listening on Apple, take a minute, write a sentence or two as a review and it helps people find the show. If you have a couple bucks and want to support the show, you can do that on Cash app at dollar Sign the Substance Pod and we appreciate everybody who does that. All right, so trying to wrap this up quick here. Should be back in your feed next week with another substantive cinema episode. I've been your host Philip Marinello and we will see you next time on the Substance. [01:26:51] Speaker A: The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show Notes, music and podcast production by Seth Buscetti. Be sure to give us a review on itunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app. You can also Visit [email protected].