Speaker 0 00:04 Hi and welcome to. That makes total sense. The podcast where we talk about faith, finance and everyday life in a way that makes total sense. I'm your host Alexis BU city. On this podcast you'll hear the personal stories of friends I'll be interviewing who are doing familiar things in new and innovative ways. We'll answer questions specifically about money and our relationship with it and we'll explore faith and Bible teaching together. In all of these. It's not about changing our convictions as much as it is about messing with our methods. We'll have a lot of moments here together where we pause and say, that makes total sense.
Speaker 0 00:44 Hi, I'm Alexis <inaudible> and this is, that makes total sense. Today on the podcast we have dr Sam's storms. Sam is serving as the pastor of Bridgeway church in Oklahoma city and Seth and I have some ribs, some friends at Bridgeway. So shout out to our friends at Bridgeway and they shared with us a little bit of same story. And when I heard it I just thought, Oh my goodness, I really want to talk to this man. So thankfully when I reached out, Sam was super gracious and said yes and we had an incredible conversation that obviously I recorded to share with you. Sam has authored something crazy like over 20 books. He is seminary educated and he has served in a lot of different traditions as far as church is concerned. But I was particularly interested in what happened when Sam was serving as the pastor of a church in my hometown, actually in Ardmore, Oklahoma.
Speaker 0 01:45 Sam called himself something like a super obnoxious cessationist when God started showing him more and more who the person of the Holy spirit is and what it looks like to operate in the gifts that the Holy spirit brings. And so Sam had this radical change of heart and change of mine and I asked him to share that story on the show. So here it is. My conversation with Sam storms. Hi, I am Alexis B city and welcome again to that makes total sense. I cannot tell you how excited I am to have the guest on that we have today. I have dr Sam storms on the line with me. Hi Sam. Hello Alexis. How are you? Oh, I'm fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on. It's my pleasure. I've been looking forward to this. Oh good. Me too. Me too. So Sam, I'm going to let Sam kind of introduce himself, but my connection to Sam is actually through some friends.
Speaker 0 02:50 So we used to, I don't even know if I mentioned the sand, but um, we actually used to live in the same town probably at the same time. I actually grew up in Ardmore, um, where I know that you pastored for a little while and then my husband and I were in Norman and the Oklahoma city area. We still have some really dear friends who live there and several of them actually go to Sam's church. And so we visited, we were, have been blessed to hear Sam's teaching. And the same has a really, really cool testimony that we'll get into in a little bit, but right now saying, would you just give us some context about your church and your family, maybe a little bit about your educational background and we can kind of go from there.
Speaker 1 03:33 Sure, sure. Well, I was born and raised here in Oklahoma, lived in Texas for about 16 years. Uh, also lived in, um, um, just outside of Chicago where I taught at Wheaton college for four years. Lived in Kansas city for 11 years, and now we are settled, uh, we hope for the final time here in Oklahoma city. Uh, we've been here, it'll be 12 years in August since we got here. Um, I went to the university of Oklahoma. So you would be familiar with that since you lived in Norman for awhile?
Speaker 0 04:04 Oh yeah. We're Sarah's too.
Speaker 1 04:06 Yeah. Um, went to Dallas theological seminary. Um, got my PhD at the university of Texas at Dallas, which is a significant admission on the part of a sooner to say that he got his highest degree at the university of Texas, but what am I going to do? Eh,
Speaker 0 04:25 that's serious.
Speaker 1 04:26 Yeah. So I've, um, I've been in a ministry of one sort or another, either teaching or pastoring for, I guess almost a 46 years now. Um, been married, I will be married to 48 years, come may. Uh, we have two grown daughters, uh, four grandchildren and, uh, we love them all. And, um, so yeah, that's just a little bit of a bio on me. I don't know if you want any more detail or if you want any follow up questions on that.
Speaker 0 04:57 Wow. I mean that's like, that's like a lot. Um, but I would say like the, one of the reasons that, um, that I love hearing you teach and especially about the, the topic of the Holy spirit and the, and the gifts of the spirit, which we'll get into in a little bit is because I feel like all of that background that you just shared, um, you teach from this perspective that I am very familiar with. I would say like, you know, growing up in a, in a Baptist home and kinda, you know, kinda being FTGS background and all that stuff. And so I'm familiar with probably your style of teaching, although the things that you teach about, um, are a little bit different. So can you tell us about your, like the current church, where you're serving and, um, kind of what the environment there looks like?
Speaker 1 05:49 Sure. Well, I was raised Southern Baptist and never attended a non Southern Baptist church until I was in seminary. Um, and I, I'd been in a variety of different churches. It, it sounds really strange when people hear it. So I've been in Southern Baptist churches, I've been in independent Baptist churches. Um, I have been a part of a independent Presbyterian church and I where I was interim pastor for three years, part of a, what might be called a Plymouth brethren type church. Most people probably don't know what that is, but that's okay. Um, part of an independent Bible church. Uh, I was also part of a vineyard church, part of the charismatic Anglican church. Um, and now I'm here at Bridgeway. Bridgeway has been nondenominational. We are about 21. What are we, uh, let me think. Goodness, 26 years old now as a church since it was founded.
Speaker 1 06:52 Uh, we are a part of the acts 29 network, but a nondenominational at least in terms of, uh, any affiliation of beyond that. Um, and my S my theological journey, I don't know if you want me to go into much detail about that. And, um, you know, many of your listeners will kind of wonder what in the world, a Dallas seminary graduate who's on the show talking about spiritual gifts of all things. I, um, I always want to preface this by saying, I, when people hear me in my journey and how I've changed, I don't want anybody to think that I am. I'm being disrespectful toward Dallas theological seminary. I loved my seminary education. I dearly loved, uh, my professors or have the utmost respect for them. Uh, although many of them are now with the Lord. Um, but Dallas was instilled as a cessation as school that does not believe that um, the miraculous gifts of the spirit are operative and valid today.
Speaker 1 07:52 They believe that they ceased some time, uh, soon after the death of the last apostle. And this is a view that I embraced for really up until about 1988, um, I was, I was not only a cessationist, I was a rather cynical, snarky, judgmental, arrogant, cessationist who used to mock and ridicule, uh, people who, um, were, whether you want to call them charismatic or Pentecostal and all the way, by the way, anytime anybody asks me, are you charismatic? I say, define that word and I'll tell you if I'm one, because there are so many characatures, so many misconceptions. Uh, for many people, uh, it conjures up images of, um, somebody twirling their sport coat in the air and throwing it on people or blowing people down in a large gathering or, um, making outrageous claims and the, and the likes. So I always want to be careful about using labels of fresh.
Speaker 1 08:50 We can get into that in just a moment. But in about 1988, I was pastoring in Ardmore where you said you used to live. And, um, I, um, I started reading a book by professor Don Carson. Don has taught for many, many years at Trinity evangelical divinity school. And Don's book called showing the spirit, uh, really opened my eyes to reevaluate the arguments I had been taught in seminary and to my everlasting shame, I openly acknowledge this. I just bought into the arguments I heard at ballasts and failed to actually open the Bible to see if they were valid. And so, uh, my good friend Jack beer, who was also at Dallas at the time, we overlapped a little bit as classmates. He's a about through two years ahead of me, I believe. Um, Jack challenged me. He, um, he had recently come to embrace the fullness of the Spirit's gifts.
Speaker 1 09:48 And I started reading scripture once again asking the question, is there anything in this Bible that I believe, which tells me that these gifts were only designed for the first 50 or 60 years of the church's existence. And then they were just going to disappear. And the answer I came up with was, no, there's nothing there. There's nothing that would even hint at that. And the arguments in the text that my cessation, his friends had often used as I look more closely at them, didn't support that particular theological conclusion. So in about 1988, um, it wasn't because I had experienced some miraculous event. I just, in the quiet of my own study, um, I came to the conclusion that these gifts were still valid, still operative. And so I began to go on a little bit of a spiritual journey and I attended a number of conferences.
Speaker 1 10:40 I got to know a number of individuals who have, who are much more, um, uh, skilled and studied on these issues. Um, I read widely, uh, and the Lord just began to open up my, and my experience then came in the aftermath of that where I began to see some other supernatural phenomenon occur. My wife experienced the same thing. And, uh, so it, it was within about, um, it's been about four or five years of my theological shift that I finally left our little Bible church and became part of a vineyard church. And kind of the rest is history. We've been on a trajectory now of, of, uh, going deeper in the understanding of the Holy spirit and what he does today and the gifts that that he bestows do enable us to do the work of the ministry. And so, um, in fact, I have a, I'm just going to exploit this interview to make a, um, an unpaid commercial advertisement.
Speaker 1 11:43 Please do. I've, I've written extensively on this subject as you know, but I finally decided I needed to write what I hope is a comprehensive treatment of spiritual gifts. And so it's actually sitting next to me right here on the floor, the final manuscript of my book entitled understanding spiritual gifts, a comprehensive guide. It will be coming out, it will be coming out from Zondervan on September 1st of this year. So what are we, what, seven months away from that? Um, it's a, it's a, it is pretty comprehensive. It's, uh, it's approximately 400 pages. So this is a big book in which I, I explore or at least try to every conceivable question about spiritual gifts. I don't just cover the miraculous gifts to spirit. I cover all 20 or 21 that I find in the new Testament and uh, talk about, um, how the spirit operates. I addressed objections. I talk about spiritual gifts in church history. Um, so it's, uh, it is as close to a comprehensive guide, um, that ha that I've ever seen. I don't know of any other book that goes into the depth that I do in this volume, so I'm excited about it. Um, I hope that's okay to promote that a little bit on air.
Speaker 0 12:59 Oh, I want you to, and actually let's say it again, so it's understanding spiritual guests. Is that the title? That's the title. A comprehensive guide, the
Speaker 1 13:07 comprehensive guide
Speaker 0 13:08 and it comes out in September. Oh, I can't wait. Yeah. And I'll even update the link so we have that right away for available because I, I, I don't what I don't want people to miss and I don't know how they could, um, but this is your story from, and I understand what, what you were saying about, tell me what you mean when you say charismatic. Define it for me and I'll kind of tell you what it is. And I was chatting with a friend the other day and my husband and I are, are completely, you know, try and embrace the gifts of the Holy spirit in the miraculous and all of these things. But we were, I was having just a candid conversation with a friend of mine the other day and I said, it feels like sometimes the, um, this kind of charismatic or Pentecostal world can feel like the wild, wild West.
Speaker 0 13:57 Sometimes it can just kind of feel like what, we don't know what's happening. We don't know where things are going. Um, but when I have heard you teach on this topic, I think your background does you justice because you come at this from a very like point by point perspective, very biblically walking through this perspective. The times that I've heard you do it. Um, and I just think that it's, that that perspective is so valuable because the events that happen are valuable too. And to see those gifts in action and to experience them are super valuable as well. But especially I think for people who come from a cessationist background like I did, um, it's really important to, like you said, just to go to the scriptures and say, why do I believe this doesn't exist? Or why do I believe this? This does. And, um, and you do a really great job of doing that. So I'm super excited. I would say exclude away. I love it. Promoted way. I'm, I'm, I'm so thankful. I'm sure we'll buy it. It sounds exactly like something my husband would read cover to cover before I even knew that it was gone. Um, but I want to go back to your story for a minute because in, unless I missed something you were pastoring, it's like at the time that you're kind of going through this like theological, spiritual shift, you are, you were pastoring, correct?
Speaker 1 15:24 Yes. I was pastor in a cessationist church.
Speaker 0 15:27 Right. So what, so what did that look like during the time that, I mean you're kind of going through this as head pastor and then you've got this congregation full of people who are going, I mean, this is, this is what we believe. This is why we're here. Like I just, I if, do you mind just kind of taking us through like that part of the journey?
Speaker 1 15:47 Sure. Well, like I said, it was about late 87 into 1988. So we're talking quite a few years ago. What is that, a 20, 32 years ago approximately. Um, and as I said, it came from reading several books and interacting with several friends who themselves had gone through this process, primarily Jack Deere, um, who taught a Hebrew and old Testament at Dallas for 12 years and was probably, uh, he would claim it even more cynical, hard shell cessationists than I was.
Speaker 0 16:21 I've actually heard Jack and I have read Jack and yes, you're exactly right.
Speaker 1 16:27 He and I were competing with each other to see who could be more obnoxious. We were, I don't know who won, but, um, so what happened basically was this, uh, as I began, as the spirit of God began to open my eyes to the word of God and what it was teaching, uh, I actually was sneaking away to conferences in Texas, in Missouri and elsewhere without telling even my wife what kind of conference it was because I feared the ridicule and the pushback and was just being challenged by the spirit of God and really what it was, as much as anything, as much as my theology was shifting by studying scripture, my heart was being transformed. And my hunger for intimacy with the Lord, uh, was really intensifying deeply. And, um, I didn't really see or experience a whole lot in those first couple of years, but, and about my dates may be off, but around 90 or 91, we had a regular Sunday morning.
Speaker 1 17:33 Our church at that time, um, very few people knew, uh, the kind of, uh, experience that I was going through. And we had a couple come to me just before the start of the service on Sunday morning. And, uh, the lady said, um, Sam, she said, our little boy, Tommy, uh, was, I think he was probably three or four months old at the time. The, the doctor on Friday said, he has a very serious life threatening liver affliction. It wasn't jaundice. And we're talking about, she said something that's obviously he's going to need a transplant or he's not going to survive. And she was in tears. She said, would you pray for him? I said, sure. So after the service, we got in my office and the elders and I anointed him with oil and we prayed. And something happened that I have never had. I had never happened before, never.
Speaker 1 18:23 And I did something that I had literally never done in my life. When it came time for me to pray, I found myself absolutely overwhelmed with the confidence that little Tommy was healed. I mean, I, and I'm not talking, I thought I was being presumptuous and I kept trying to talk myself out of it. Say, Sam, be careful. You know, you, you warn people not to talk like that. Don't, don't get presumptuous. And every time I tried to talk myself out of it, it's like the spirit of God pushed the doubts out of my mind. And as they got up to leave, uh, the woman's name was Kay. She said, well, thank you for praying. I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow. I said, Oh, he's healed. And she, she just froze. In fact, she lives in Oklahoma now and I've got her testimony and all the details written out in detail.
Speaker 1 19:12 And she said, Sam, you've never said that before. What do you mean? I said, he's healed. And people have to understand. I had, I had prayed for hundreds of people up until then, and I've prayed for probably thousands of people since then. I've never said that to anybody. I could not have <inaudible> well, they go to the doctor the next day and I've actually got the doctor's report. Um, and he describes how he has no account or explanation for this. He said some sort of miracle must've happened. Tommy was totally in perfectly okay. He's very much alive and well and flourishing. I think he lives in Tulsa, Oklahoma today. Um, but that was the first healing miracle that we saw. And one of the things that we did in those early days was we've, I came to realize that nothing was going to happen apart from prayer. And so we launched a prayer ministry at our church.
Speaker 1 20:04 I trained people to pray. We started asking people to come forward at the end of the service. Anybody wanted prayer for any reason, primarily physical healing though, and we would pray for them. And it just continued to grow and expand. And then in 1993, um, I mean, I don't know how much detail you want, but we had so many supernatural events occur to us in 1993 that, uh, were, were just genuinely remarkable and could not be explained in any other way than that God was working, uh, on our behalf in just simply supernatural manifestations. Um, and it led to our leaving that church and going Kansas city and becoming a part of a vineyard church there. And the, one of the biggest miracles was how much life was brought along cause she initially thought I'd gone nuts. Um,
Speaker 0 20:56 well that's the thing I'm thinking like, are people in your church? Like, did you, did you lose people? I mean, your wife? Like, I mean, I want you to go there first, but that would be the biggest, biggest miracle because I'm thinking having been in ministry with someone your whole adult life basically,
Speaker 1 21:12 right? Yeah. And, uh, I, I, I've, I've confessed this many times and I've repented to her so many times. She's tired of hearing it, but I was very effective at quenching the spirit in her life. Um, you know, we had been married about 16 years when this thing came about in my theology and I had unfortunately so conditioned her to be cynical and suspicious of anything supernatural that it took a lot of work of God to bring her along. And in fact, what happened, and I'll just be very brief here. Um, she went through a, what can only be called a deliverance experience in the summer of 93. Uh, it's a long story. I tell the story, uh, inconsiderable tale in my book convergence, the spiritual journeys of a charismatic Calvinist. Um, but short, long story short, um, she had opened her heart to the enemy by making what we call an inner vow in which she basically said, I can't trust God.
Speaker 1 22:17 I can't trust my husband. And she experienced this beckoning as it were. We believe from a demonic spirit and we didn't know what to call it. She wouldn't have known how to describe it other than the fact that for 16, 17, 18 years, um, she would get up every day hearing this voice in her head. And it was a very dark and, um, tempting and seductive voice. Um, and in the summer of 93, she had by this time really come around in terms of her understanding of the scriptures and the work of the spirit. And she went through a massive deliverance. There's no other way to describe it. I know that word kind of scares people. I think it's a beautiful word because it means people are being set free from the oppression of the enemy. And she got set free right in front of my eyes and her life was turned around, our marriage was turned around.
Speaker 1 23:12 And, um, it has, it really was a momentous moment in July of 93 when this happened. So, uh, but getting back to the real quickly, the, the, the church in Ardmore where I was pastoring, uh, it took about five years for me to kind of turn the church. I, I moved very, very slowly. I think. I think it's one of the mistakes that certain pastors make is that when they come into the understanding of the gifts of the spirit and the work of the Holy spirit, they try to move too quickly. They try to push people into something before they have shown them from scripture, the basis for it. So I spent year five years preaching through the book of acts, preaching through first Corinthians 12 through 14, preaching on spiritual warfare. I did a 12 week series on worship. Uh, we, uh, launched a prayer ministry and very gradually, very slowly, very patiently, uh, taught people.
Speaker 1 24:08 Cause I, so one of the things I tell pastors you cannot and should not expect your people to come along with you until they can see for themselves in God's word what he says about these things and in see in you that you value this and you're not just quote unquote open to the gifts of the spirit that you're actively hungry, desperate for, and you're pursuing them. Because as Paul says in first Corinthians 14 one earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. So that's it. It took close to five years before the people in the church were large board. We lost maybe six people over those years, which was remarkable. Yeah, I look back and I continue to say, wow. And the, and the reason for that I really do believe was the Lord constantly hammering it home in my mind, Sam, go slowly.
Speaker 1 25:03 Go slowly. Show them in scripture week after week after week. Let them see in my word that this is true. Otherwise you will destroy the church. You'll split it. You'll drive people away. And the Lord really honored that. And it, this is one of the biggest problems we have. We have, we, we all struggle from inpatients in general, but I think that when a Christian leaders first enter into the experience, maybe they've had a profound miracle or they witnessed the healing or they've had a prophetic word that's transformed their life, they just want to grab everybody and pull them in immediately without giving them the opportunity to see it and learn it for themselves. I'll just share one other quick experience. Um, that, that was transformative for me was January, 1991 and my friend Jack Deere had invited me to a conference in Anaheim, California. So I flew out there, excuse me.
Speaker 1 26:01 And uh, it's about 7,000 people at the Anaheim convention center. And I just went basically as an observer. I was still, I was just two or three years into this and I was watching and on the last day of the conference, Jack took me down in the lower level of the convention center into a room and he said, just sit here for the next couple of hours and watch what happens. And he left me there and I was sitting at the back of a room. It had about maybe 75 to a hundred people in it and there were a group of a half a dozen individuals up front and they would one by one point out people in the room, call them upfront and quote unquote prophesied to them. Well, I've never really witnessed prophecy before. And quite literally after an hour and a half, I was the only person left in the room and I was sitting up against the back wall.
Speaker 1 26:49 I didn't know these people up front from Adams orphan. By this time, there were only three of them left. And I went up and I sat down and a man looked at me, a man who became a very close friend who, uh, he looked like a prophet. If there's a, if there's a look, you look up the word a dictionary, there'd be his picture, you know, the silver gray, uh, hair with a beard and piercing blue eyes and um, this, this deep resonating voice. And he didn't know me. He saw my little name tag which said, Sam, he said, he looked at me, he said, Sam, you're a pastor and I'm going to tell you what you've been praying in your hotel room the last three nights. And he proceeded to quote my prayer to me. Now, I mean, not just paraphrase, like, Oh, God helped me.
Speaker 1 27:36 He quoted verbatim my prayers and I've got a pretty good poker face. So I sat there and didn't flinch. I didn't blink. I wasn't going to give this guy any help at all. He then proceeded to describe what was going on in my church. He then told me how it was going to resolve itself, which it, but I have to tell you, I was still cynical. Here's what I did. God is my witness. I went back to my hotel room for the final night and I got down on my hands and knees, but it was a to pray. I looked for a bugging device. I thought Jack Deere has bugged my hotel room. He's recorded my prayers. He passed it off to this guy cause they're trying to lure me into a cult. I really did.
Speaker 2 28:21 Laughing is terribly because I'm thinking that's totally something I would do.
Speaker 1 28:26 Counters. I looked in the bathroom, I'm looking under the bed sheets and then, I mean literally all of a sudden the kind of the light ruin on my brain. I thought, all right, hold it on storm Floyd. Just a minute. Do you believe that God actually heard you pray all these last three nights? Yes, I do. Do you believe that God could have actually communicated those prayers to this man so that he could then speak them back to you for your encouragement and to build you up? W w w well, yeah. Well why not? So I repented, got up off my knees and I never been the same sense. That was the first prophetic word that I was, that I ever received. And in fact, interestingly, it was this same man who, uh, two years later spoke the prophetic word of that conference that led to my wife's deliverance.
Speaker 1 29:14 So, uh, yeah, that, so those are just a couple of instances. And again, if people are listening to this are saying, Oh, there you charismatics. Go again. Basing everything on your experience. And no, I, I'm looking in first Corinthians and elsewhere in the scriptures about the gift of prophecy and how it operates. I just happened to be the recipient of one and it didn't, I didn't become a believer in prophecy because of that man's word. I believe that because the Bible taught it, he just confirmed it to me. He solidified it in my soul by, by God mercifully communicating to me in a way that was so faith building. And uh, so I've, I've been an advocate and a proponent of prophecy ever since.
Speaker 0 29:59 Wow. I mean, thank you for sharing all that. I'm like, I feel like my brain just can't, just can't keep up with, with some of this. But I do want to go back, um, to, to kind of one of the things you said at the beginning and then with this story right now, you know, with, with God just kind of asking you, is this possible? And when it happened, like he's saying, is this possible that he would've done, you know, I would have, I would have given this to him to repeat back to you for your encouragement. And you know, at the beginning of all this, when you were saying you were kind of secretly going to the conferences and doing that kind of stuff, but it was, it was increasing your hunger for God. It was increasing your desire for intimacy with him. It was, you know, it was doing all of, all of those things.
Speaker 0 30:46 And, um, and so it's like, I would say I, I have not nearly as dramatic of a story, but coming from, uh, a cessationist background, you know, a Southern Baptist background. And then we had gone, my husband and I with actually some of the, some of the congregants that you know, had been at an assemblies of God campus ministry when we were, um, at O U and I had friends who had grown up in a charismatic background going to services at this ministry. And then I showed up and they're kind of freaking out thinking she's going to wig. Like she's not like, you know, people are, people are, um, like praying in tongues and people, you know, there, the worship is, you know, it was like unleashed college. College kids is like amazing and, and they're going, she's, she's about to wig out. And I'll tell you, even at the beginning, crazy kind of crazy, and I know it sounds nuts.
Speaker 0 31:56 The first night I went to this ministry, it was a worship night where people independently were, were just like praying and worshiping in tongues. There was nothing happening from the stage. It was just their independent prayer language. And, and it was apparently happening all around me. So I go to debrief with one of my friends afterwards, she just asking me how was it, how you know, and I was like, I thought it was great. I thought it was amazing. She prayed and I don't even know that I'm saying I agree with all of this. I'm just saying, you know, this was part of my testimony. She prayed that I wouldn't hear it because she thought this is going to freak her out. Like if she hears it and she won't come back. Um, but I didn't hear it. I didn't hear it. And I think it was because I feel even like I'm saying, I'm not, I'm not like making some sort of theological standpoint on whether or not I believe that that's the way to do it.
Speaker 0 32:44 But what I would say is go slow because even though it's an, you know, the Holy spirit does these things for our edification of our encouragement. Even though, like you said, when we embrace these moves of the spirit, they increase our hunger for intimacy with God. Even though all of those things are part of the fruit of it. I believe when we have been, and I'll use your word cause cause it fits my experience when we have been conditioned that those things are not. And I would say for me it was kind of like those things are not even of God. Um, you know, whatever that means. Like those things hurt. I have stopped. If those things are existing, it has to be something else because because God said they're over. When we've been conditioned in that then it is like go slow. And, and even if it is, um, you know, somehow we're saying we're having this experience but it's like, but this experience is encouraging us to go deeper in our walk with God. And so I don't know, I'm speaking as a lay person who is kind of, you know, been in, been in one camp and then kind of in another, but can you speak to that like theologically to come from the experience and the encouragement and the seeking after God, but then still for maybe our cessation is friends who would say, I don't know. There's another way or you can go deeper in this or can you just speak to that theologically?
Speaker 1 34:10 Yeah, let me do it by, by just kind of sharing a couple more stories. First I want to touch pick up on what you were talking about in terms of intimacy with the Lord. Um, because those conferences that I was sneaking out to in 1988 through about 1991 they were all worship conferences and what was happening was God was tenderizing my heart to be receptive to his joyful affection for me. That kind of language used to freak me out. It felt too squishy. It felt too subjective and kind of ooey gooey. I don't know what cheesy, I don't know what you want to call it, but then, you know, Zephaniah three 17 leapt off the page of scripture where it says that God sings with joy over me. And I found in these times of worship that my affection for the Lord and his affection for me converged.
Speaker 1 35:09 And it just, it tenderized me in a way that I'd never experienced before. That if there was any, and I'll be honest here, if there was an experience that at least w inclined my mind to be more inquisitive and more open, it was that, it was that God became very real to me, very personal, very near and dear. And um, I remember at that conference in 91 out in Anaheim, I left saying to myself, those people that I just saw have an unashamed, extravagant affection for Jesus. And I don't, but God, I want it. And that was so much of a catalyst in moving me forward. Um, let me just tell you one other quick story that kind of will, I hope it'll answer your question. Um, in ninth, in the summer of 1970. So I'm giving away my age here. I was after my freshman year though, you, I went to Lake Tahoe, California, Nevada, kind of on the border there and participated in a summer project with campus crusade for Christ.
Speaker 1 36:16 Well, if anybody can remember, 19 summer of 1970 was when the Jesus movement broke out. Oh, for sure. That was when we had the, uh, anti-Vietnam war demonstrations, the Kent state shootings. Um, that was Swin Hal Lindsey's book, late, great planet earth was released and the Jesus movement broke out and I was out and would take ships over to California and I encountered the Christian world liberation front. See WLF they were Jesus freaks. I mean, hippies who loved God, spent some time with them. And remember at that time I was still this hardened, cynical Southern Baptist cessationist. And at the end of my summer there, um, there was a Bible study being held and a man by the name of Harold Bredesen was there. Most people won't know that name. He was one of the pioneers of charismatic renewal in the 1950s and 1960s and he talked about this thing called speaking in tongues.
Speaker 1 37:15 Well, I had always heard my dad mock and ridicule those who spoke in tongues, although my dad was a wonderful Christian man's now with the Lord, and so I was really prejudiced against it, but God awakened in me a desire. When I got back to the campus at OSU, I spent approximately five weeks every single night, seven days a week. At around 10 o'clock at night, I would leave my fraternity house. I'd walk to an elementary school, sit down underneath the tree and pray. I said, God, I think you want me to have this gift, but I'm terrified. I don't know what to do, Lord, if you are pleased, please. This happened for like five weeks, seven nights a week, one night, and I wasn't trying to do it. I hadn't really even come to believe that it was real. I got invaded by the Holy spirit is the only way I know how to put it and broke out in this prayer language that was the most glorious, exhilarating thing I'd ever known in my life.
Speaker 1 38:12 And then what happened was I shut it down because I was told now their policy has since changed. But I was told that crusade would not allow people involved in the charismatic world to be leaders in their campus ministry. And I was the student leader and I got so fearful I shut it down. And for 20 years I never spoken tongues again, shut down completely 20 years until my friend Jack Deere at a theology conference in November of 1990 prayed for me that God would renew that gift. You know, Paul says in second Timothy one Kindle afresh, the gift of God that is in you through the laying on of my hands. In other words, I had let that gift kind of die out from a burning flame down to this just barely glowing Ember. And God's saying, fan it back into flame and he did.
Speaker 1 39:04 And praying in tongues is not the most important gift. But it's not the least important, but it is a staple of my daily experience. I pray in tongues every single day. Um, oftentimes at great length. I just, in fact, I just had a book published this will have about four or five months ago called the language of heaven, crucial questions about speaking in tongues. So I've got a 250 page book just on that one spiritual gift. And I go into every biblical text. I answer every question. I talk about how it is to be used in the church and how it isn't to be used. Um, so, you know, I, I guess, you know, when I tell my story, there's this interplay between a hunger for God and a deeper intimacy with him, seeing new things in scripture, being willing to receive whatever God wants to grant me, still at times, resisting, pushing back, being a little skeptical here and there. Um, but as long as I remain true to what I saw in scripture, God confirmed it in my experience and expanded it. And, uh, here I am today. You know, just, uh, whatever I am, I don't know, but I get, I hope I can blame it legitimately on the Lord.
Speaker 0 40:19 I love it. I just, I love it so much because I think one of the things that I'm hearing from you and that is really encouraging in my own faith walk and it's something that I have been praying for myself and for my husband even just last in the last few weeks is, is I felt like God really impressed upon me to pray for a teachable spirit. And that's what I'm hearing from you in this moment is it's like, it's, so,
Speaker 0 40:53 it's, it's important to have a teachable spirit, but it's like we can get caught up in our own, fill in the blank. We can get caught up in our own education. We can get caught up in the private, we know what we're doing. We can get caught up in our current culture, you know, or whatever arm believe in culture is, we can get caught up in our family. We can do all of those things. And it takes, when I see your story, I see grace, I see bravery. You know, I see courage because I'm just thinking how many, you know, 20 years into your pastoral career and as, as varied as it was. Like you said, it was still kind of all in side of this, of this camp that, I mean, you haven't used the word but, but I'll go, go ahead and say inside this camp that in some ways is it can be very limiting to how we experience God and how we interact with one another.
Speaker 0 41:54 And so to be inside of this camp and then all of a sudden, you know, just to kind of, just to kind of even start asking the questions is, um, requires just, just so much grace and so much courage to even start asking those questions of not just what if it's different, but what if I'm wrong? You know, what if I'm wrong? And, and, and then, and then, and then moving forward and seeing that God didn't at all because it's not his character. He did not all act in a punitive way toward you or toward me or toward anyone else who goes further in the journey and saying, well listen, you know, these last 20 years, you really botched it. Okay son. And so when, you know, like it's just right, right. And that's our tendency, I think, you know, to say it, but, but I just, what I'm seeing in that is God's is God's grace and it kind of is, you know, kind of finger saying, just like, come here, just come a little closer, you know?
Speaker 0 42:58 Yeah, I get it. You spent 20 years there, you don't want to be there anymore. Right. You know, and just, and just kind of him, him saying, come, you know, come closer and closer and, and, and showing you and opening up his word. That's another thing I see in your story is that God's word is living and active. I would say arguably you and Jack Deere and some of these other guys you've talked about these DTS, it's like you would say, who knows the Bible, who knows the scripture more than these guys, but to have an experience after not just 20 years of knowing and studying the word, but of preaching the word and then saying the word God is so living and active inside of his word that even 20 years in, you opened it and saw things that you didn't see. Right, right. Which is incredible.
Speaker 1 43:54 Let me just mention something along those lines. You talk about the kind of the courage as over against the cowardice. Uh, it was a cha, it was a big hurdle to get over because honestly, I, I am persuaded now my cessation is friends will probably object, but I am persuaded that the primary reason people are cessationists isn't because they think that's what the Bible teaches. It's because they're fearful of being identified with the extreme elements. In the Pentecostal charismatic world. They have seen abuses. They have watched fanaticism, they've looked at people, uh, really honestly bring reproach on the gospel in the name of Jesus. And they say to themselves, cause this is what I said to myself. Well, wait just a minute. If being open to the gifts of the spirit and being charismatic means I've got to hang out with those folks and act like them.
Speaker 1 44:44 I'm not going there. And I think it's fear. It's guilt by association. It's that, that, that prejudice we've built up in our hearts because of the abuses that we have seen. And I'll just tell you one experience that was definitive for me. It was probably in about 1988 or 89, um, I was up late at night. I was watching a program on one of the Christian TV stations and a very famous televangelist. And most people would know his name if I mentioned it, was, uh, teaching the people, so to speak. And he started to quote unquote prophecy. And it was one of the most offensive, manipulative, obviously, uh, spurious attempts to do that, that I've ever witnessed. And I remember sitting there and he started, you know, I say I had to put it in, quote marks, prophesied and praying for the sick. And I felt this gut reaction to the literal physiological reaction.
Speaker 1 45:47 I was recoiling and I felt this knot in my stomach. And I found myself saying, if that's what it means, if that's the direction I'm heading, Lord, I'm not going to do it. It's not worth it. And I mean the Lord just brought conviction to my heart and I, I don't know if it was me thinking or the spirit of God putting this in my heart and my mind, but I suddenly, it was as if God said to me, Sam, why would you let the abuses of some lead you to disuse and to defy what you clearly see in my word? And I suddenly realized that I had, this is the way I put it. I hadn't created for my own life, an 11th commandment. There are more than 10 there's 11 and that commandment was thou shalt not do it all. What others do poorly.
Speaker 1 46:37 And glad you said that men was, was I ever slavishly obedient to that commandment? And so I thought, wait a minute, I've just watched somebody do it really poorly. It's embarrassing. It's a, it's bringing a reproach on the gospel. It's shameful. But why would I allow that to use to justify my disobedience to God's word? And so I've, I don't know that I've ever made a vow to God. Cause I know they're scary and we usually don't keep them. I made a vow to the Lord that by his grace I've kept to this day, I sat there on the couch and I said, Lord, by your grace, I will never again justify my disobedience to your word by appealing to the abuses of others. And that's, that's not easy to keep. You need to cause we see a lot of abuses. But you know, people say, well what about this person and what about that story?
Speaker 1 47:32 And this was fabricated. I said, okay, but why should I allow that to shape how I read and understand and respond to God's written word, which is inspired and infallible. So that was if there was any courage in that was it was spirit prompted. I don't take credit for that. God really helped me and I know a lot of people listening to this are probably saying the same thing you're saying, but guys see these people on TV or I go to their meetings or read their books and it's so offensive. Yeah, there, there are people like that on all sides of all theological issues, but what are you going to allow to dictate your thinking and your behavior? Is it that or is it what God says in his word? It really comes down to that.
Speaker 0 48:16 Can you say that 11th commandment again because I'm so glad I didn't even know you going to go there, but I was going to ask you because I heard it in another talk when I was, when I was prepping for our interview and I thought, Ooh, I'm going to get him to say that. So that 11th commandment, one more time,
Speaker 1 48:32 thou shall not do it all what others do poorly. And I think all of, I bet 100% of the people listening to this say, yeah, I got to admit I've obeyed that commandment pretty faithfully. But stop and think about this. We've, I've seen people evangelize really badly. They've were brow beating unbelievers. They're trying to coerce the confessions. I've heard horrible sermons. People have abused the text of scripture. Um, I've watched people, um, utilize the gift of giving in order to win favor with folks. Every spiritual gift and every command in scripture can be abused and twisted and distorted. But we don't throw out preaching because of that. We don't throw away evangelism because of that. It's almost as if we put spiritual gifts in a special categories at all. But if, if I see an abuse there so much that you know, for that I'm, I'm, I'm done with that. We treat it all together differently. There are always going to be abusive. We're all broken people. We don't do things perfectly, but we can't allow any offense that, that might create in our hearts to justify our disobedience to God's word.
Speaker 0 49:46 Wow. That's, that's it. I mean, that's it and, and that,
Speaker 1 49:55 yeah,
Speaker 0 49:55 I think that's what, you know, that's part of what this whole relationship with God is all about. It's like, it's like, you know, whenever, you know, as a a tried example, it's kind of, you know, the typical one where you say, you know, my, my daughters are saying, you know, so and so has a phone or so and so is going to get when you know, did it. And I'm like, well, that's great for so and so. I'm super proud of her. I'm super glad that her mom wants to do that. You're not getting a phone, you know, but it's like, you know, when it comes down, that relationship thing, it's like when God is asking you to do something or when he's asking you for obedience and area in an area, or he's asking you to believe him about something and you say, but look at these guys that run. He's like, Oh, okay, great. I didn't ask you about those guys. I didn't ask you how they're doing it. That's kind of not your business. What I'm asking is, will you believe me for this? What do you do this?
Speaker 1 50:51 And I, I really think if there's one thing I could in all that we've talked about that I could leave with people who are listening to this and that is just get quiet for a little while and ask your own soul how much of my behavior, how many of my beliefs are shaped and informed by what I have seen others do badly. And I'm determined not to do it at all or to do the very opposite. And then compare that with how many of my beliefs in much how much of my behavior is actually rooted in scripture. And it will be a, it will be a painful moment when when you do that, honestly, before the Lord, it was an incredibly painful moment for me, but it was also remarkably liberating. It set me on a path of God, I'm going to follow your word wherever it takes me.
Speaker 1 51:44 Um, even though, uh, people might look at me and think, Oh my Sam storms prays in tongues. That's weird. I've, I've watched people who thought they had the gift sound idiotic. Well that, guess what? Yeah. A lot of people sound idiotic speaking in English, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to give up on my native language. Um, so yeah, that, that is just such a huge hurdle that people have to get over. They have to move beyond the offense, move beyond the embarrassment, move beyond the mistakes people have made and say, I'm going to immerse myself in God's word and by his self and through the power of the spirit. I'm going to walk in it and I'm going to pursue it wholeheartedly.
Speaker 0 52:30 Wow. Thank you Sam so much. That was such an amazing and eloquent way to, to wrap us up. Um, I am going to put links to the books that you have mentioned because I want for everyone to be able to get their hands on them. In fact, I'm going to mention one more because I, God, like I said, I was, I was doing my research and I thought, Oh my goodness, I am actually going to have to buy this one on Kindle today, I think and start reading it tonight. But that goes back to your Zephaniah folks. So the singing God, uh, feel the passion God has for you just the way you are. And so I'm going to put a plug in for that one. I haven't read it, but I'm planning on doing it. I'll probably, like I said, buy the Kindle tonight.
Speaker 1 53:13 Yeah, that was a, that was a life changing. Ted and I have three 17, and that book has really an, uh, an expansion on that one verse. And there's also one other book that came out in of 2017. So just about two years, three years ago, it's called practicing the power, welcoming the gifts of the spirit in your life, practicing the power. And that book was written, let me just quickly explain it. I used to get dozens and dozens of emails from pastors and people saying, okay, we agree with you theologically. We can't see cessationism in the Bible. We believe the gifts are still valid, but we're terrified of blowing up our church. How do we do this? How do we implement this in a practical way into the life of ourselves individually and our church corporately? And that book I wrote to answer that question.
Speaker 0 54:04 Perfect. Perfect. I'll include that as well. And then people can also find you where, where else can they find some of your, um, some of your articles or some of your teachings. What's a good, what's a good point for them?
Speaker 1 54:17 Virtually everything I've written is
[email protected]. S a M S T O R M S Sam storms.org org and everything is there free. Um, there are hundreds and hundreds of articles. Um, and they can utilize that in any way they see fit. People say, well, if I see something I want to copy and distribute, can I, and I said, my copyright law is you have the right to copy, so feel free to feel free to do with it what you will. Just don't charge money for it. And um, it's not there to, for anybody to make a profit. Um, and yeah, Sam storms.org I blog regularly. Like I said, hun, I just posted 156 articles that I wrote called 10 things you should know and that's 10 things you should know about God's grace. 10 things you should know about the Holy spirit, about virtually every theological topic. And those were just posted a few days ago.
Speaker 0 55:17 Wow. Thank you so much, Stan. Sam, you are a wealth of information. I love your story. I'm so thankful that you're willing to share it so openly and um, and you know, we're just praying that this conversation is encouraging and it gets people thinking, um, thinking about why they believe what they believe. And really I'm just going to continue to pray that it encourages people to seek God more deeply and seek intimacy more deeply and, and let them hear what he's speaking to their hearts. Well, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 55:53 It's been my pleasure. Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 0 55:55 Uh huh. Thanks Sam. Talk soon.
Speaker 1 55:57 Bye. Bye.
Speaker 0 55:59 Okay, so thank you again so much for listening. Don't forget to subscribe so you won't miss an episode. Share the link with your friends. You can visit
[email protected] and until next time, this is Alexis Piseti remembering to do well for ourselves so we can do good for others.
Speaker 3 56:18 <inaudible>.
