Speaker 0 00:00:04 Hi,
Speaker 1 00:00:05 That makes total sense. The podcast where we talk about faith, finance and everyday life
Speaker 0 00:00:11 In a way that makes total sense. I'm your host, Alexis <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:00:15 On this podcast. You'll hear the personal stories of friends I'll be interviewing who are doing familiar things in new and innovative ways. We'll answer questions specifically about money and our relationship with it. And we'll explore faith and Bible teaching together in all of these. It's not about changing our convictions as much as it is about messing with our methods. We'll have a lot of moments here together where we pause and say, that makes total sense. Hi, this is Alexis Piseti and you're listening to that makes total sense today. I have the privilege of bringing you a conversation I had with Adam and Randy Blair of the sailor project. This one was so much fun because Randy and I share a mutual friend and that friend in real life connected us on Instagram. And so I was so thrilled when I saw the work that Adam and Randy are doing, um, get to see their family on Instagram.
Speaker 1 00:01:13 It's so sweet on, on Randy's profile and just to have this conversation and dig in a bit deeper to their organization, the sailor project, and what they do is they help train churches to bring diversity and inclusion into their congregations. They define diversity as the presence of difference. And I just love that because it is so vital for all of our survival and thriving to have the presence of difference in our lives and in our churches. And so Adam and Randy are so gifted at this and they actually begin our conversation by telling the story of how they met and how that translated into the work they do now. So sit back and listen to this incredible conversation I had with Adam and Randy Blair. Hello everybody. This is Alexis Piseti, and I want to welcome you to that makes total sense. We have some guests on the show today that I am really excited about, and they are a married couple, which I'm thinking right now. I think this is actually the first time I've actually had a married couple on the show together. And so I'm super excited about that today. I have Randy and Adam Blair of their ministry, the sailor project.
Speaker 2 00:02:33 Hello, thank you for having us. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:02:36 Absolutely. So can you guys tell us a little bit, this is actually fun too, because we're we're local. We haven't had the chance to get coffee in real life yet, but we were connected by a mutual local friend here in Houston. And, um, and so can you guys tell us a little bit about, um, about your life here in Houston? Inter-family
Speaker 2 00:02:59 Sure.
Speaker 3 00:03:00 Um, well, Randy and I have been married for 15 years and we, so she's from Houston, I'm from Washington state and we met in Colorado. We gone to school and we met at a church there and, um, fast forward, we got married, moved down to Houston. We have, uh, five children, um, Kinsley who's 17 Alex and Elias, both 13 and Lennox and Hazel who are both very,
Speaker 1 00:03:35 This is crazy. So we were talking before we started recording and I mentioned my twins and they both like looked at each other, like we have two sets of twins and I'm like, no,
Speaker 3 00:03:45 Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:03:49 This is a lot. I know, like we have four in one set of twins, but two sets of twins.
Speaker 3 00:03:54 This is
Speaker 1 00:03:57 Real life. This is real life. So we're in Colorado. Gee, did you guys meet by the way?
Speaker 3 00:04:01 Colorado Springs.
Speaker 1 00:04:02 Okay. My husband's from the Denver area. Um, and so yeah, we, we met when he moved to Oklahoma, so that's really cool. But Washington state, gee whiz, this is a different world.
Speaker 3 00:04:14 Yes. Different world. It's a very different world. Yeah. Well, when I first moved down to Houston, it was actually a culture shock. I almost felt like I was literally a different country year to really decide that I didn't hate Houston. Um, and that was because of the people,
Speaker 1 00:04:38 Right? Oh, Houston does. Houston has amazing, amazing people. Yes. But w we're I'm only from Oklahoma, which I like to call diet, Texas, you know, like it's, it's like really close. Um, but, but even still moving here, it was like, it's like a whole other, like a whole other planet. So I'm, I'm so glad you guys are here and I want to get into the sailor project and what you guys do there. Um, but we were talking earlier and we might talk a little bit first about kind of how, how you guys met in Colorado and that story, and then how you got into the work that you do. And then we'll kind of take it from there.
Speaker 3 00:05:15 Do you want to, so this, this story of how we met is going to be different depending on who you're talking
Speaker 1 00:05:22 Every time, right? Yeah. Every time it's totally different at my house too. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:05:28 We met in 2000 and I think it was the end of 2002. And, um, we were both going to the same church. He was a intern at this church and I was just a member. Um, and that was one of the lies that we went to this party and he was like, try to hook up with, I try to get to know me and like me, I need
Speaker 4 00:05:58 To focus on school and
Speaker 1 00:06:00 I could see Adam's face right now. He's like, I'm just waiting until she's done. So I can,
Speaker 4 00:06:06 Yeah. He told me to call him and I was like, no, I don't call guys. You can call me if you're interested. And so, um, I never called him. I kept going to church. Um, and I could just always see him staring. Cause he was on the worship team playing the one of the guitars. I didn't know which one, but he was on the stage and he would always stare at me. And I'm like, why do you made me <inaudible>? And so, um, one day he's like, okay, let me take you out. And so it was so cute. He had his Bible at the date. It was just like, Oh, Holy and why? You know, I walked in on her first day with a Bible King James Bible. Wow. Oh, he was not playing Randy nuzzled in my shoes. Ready. He was not playing. Yeah. It's so it's so funny now.
Speaker 4 00:07:10 And so, um, I still wasn't like into it cause I was just focusing on my school. Like I was like, I cannot be into a guy. I have to focus on my studies. I'm from out of state. I don't want to get, you know, in a relationship and it doesn't work because I was in a relationship back home and it didn't work. And so I was committed in bed and may my mom came up to Colorado for a birthday and she spent her birthday with me and she attended church and I showed her, I said, this is Adam. I think he really he's into me, but I'm not going to date him. And so Adam catered to my mom and we were like friends, but we were not like brands, friends. Right, right, right, right. Right. And so my mom, when I was dropping her off at the airport, she said, Hey, that guy, Adam, you need to give him a chance. He's the one. And I'm like, you should be telling me no, like fucking at school. And so we started like, I listened to my mom and she was right. That is a great story. There's no,
Speaker 1 00:08:14 That was a, that was a great story, Adam, unlike what your facial features were telling you,
Speaker 4 00:08:18 That was a great story. You guys can all believe that rendition. I don't mind. I'll just I'll leave it there. I'm not even gonna give my side to the story. Um, I did not. I did not. She, she baked for me. It's actually the truth. Yeah. So we met and um, I will say this though. So we fell in love with each other's passion for Jesus before we fell in love with each other. We, you know, we were both worshipers, very dedicated to God, dedicated to ministry. Um, I wanted to be a pastor, so I was in this
Speaker 3 00:08:56 And I took it very seriously. And uh, but when the internship was over, you know, I'm saying I a date. So we started to, well, we called it courting back then. I don't even know if the kids use that phrase anymore, but we started, let's just call it dating. And um, we just fell. We fell in love and we just knew very quickly that it was a God thing. Um, and we, we just knew, even though we were young, I was 21, she was 22. We just knew that it was right. Um, and we had support from a few of our friends, but within the church, uh, it's a whole different story. Um, so I don't know if, if you, uh, if we have said anything, but I'm white and my wife is black and some people don't like that. Right. Um, and basically the church. Yeah. And so when we fell in love quickly and our love was so innocent and so full of God. But I remember several instances within that church where we had quite a bit of opposition from our leadership. Um, you know, Randy can tell you of a few instances, some experiences that she had,
Speaker 4 00:10:13 Uh, it was, um, I wanted to serve. And so in order for me to serve, I had to go pick weeds out of the pastors garden. Y um, yeah, in order for me to serve the youth, I had to go and I had to go pick weeds. And, um, I w I would ask other people like, are you having to go? And that was in the same cohort as I was in, like, do you have to go and pick weeds? They're like, what are you talking about? I was going to say, Adam, you intern there, were you picking up?
Speaker 3 00:10:47 Absolutely not. I was appreciating and I was leading worship. And yeah,
Speaker 4 00:10:54 Just things like that or telling Adam that we are, um, I'm not the one I'm legit Isabelle. Um,
Speaker 3 00:11:03 We had, we had one instance where, um, where we were all at dinner together at a restaurant and it was somewhat dark. And Randy was the only black person at the table,
Speaker 4 00:11:16 Colorado Springs, which is very homogenous,
Speaker 3 00:11:19 Right. Unless you're at the air force Academy. And so one, uh, one of the pastors jokingly said, Hey, Randy, smile. I can't see you. Wow. Referring to how darker skin ones in the whole group laugh. Um, I was, yeah, I was at it's very painful. I was, I was shocked. I didn't really know what to do because that pastor was my best friend. And it was an awkward situation because here I am from Washington from a very small homogenous town. And I never taught how to, how to be. Anti-racist how to like, stand up for people that are marginalized and didn't even know what words to use. All I knew is that it made me feel bad. Um, you know, and then later on, I remember when I went to, uh, getting ready to fly down, to go meet Randy's parents for the first time my executive pastors said to me, so when I was going to, uh, first meet Randy's parents for the first time, um, I was getting ready to fly down.
Speaker 3 00:12:25 I remember saying goodbye to the leadership team. Cause you know, I was an intern. So they had to know my whereabouts. And I remember the senior pastor, uh, putting his arm around me and patting me on the back and laughing. He said, watch out for those black people, man. Ha ha. And he laughed and patted my back. And this was an international inter like, like nationally, internationally known pastor that a lot of people respect. And if I said his name you'd know who he was, I had no idea how to react to it. I nervously laughed. Didn't know what he meant. Well, now I know what he meant. What he meant was they're not one of us later on when we returned from that trip. And Randy and I decided that we wanted to get engaged. Um, finally the leadership pulled me to the side and told me, Hey, listen, if we weren't clear before, what we're trying to basically tell you is that if you get married, ministry is going to be hard for you and you will not be accepted in many circles.
Speaker 3 00:13:24 Not only that, but having an interracial marriage with biracial children is going to be hard for you in society. And it's going to be hard on your kids. We don't recommend that you do it. And my response to that was packing my bags and I left amen, amen. And removed down to Houston. But even in our relationship, that pain was in our marriage for years. I believe for most of the, probably 10 years of him, not my husband, not having the worst to combat those things and being loyal to leadership and thinking like they're, they're hearing from God. Um, you know, even just right now, we've been married for 15 years, but I learned something just now from him, like how, how hard it was for him to really, he didn't have the language. And that's what, like right now in our country, a lot of people don't have the language they want to speak up, but they don't know how to speak up or they don't know how, like what they say like, well, how will they come across? And so, um, it just gave me so much respect now, like to see me now, all I can focus on was my own pain. I got his pain of him being torn between people that he was looking for, guidance
Speaker 4 00:14:52 Of God. And then, you know, the woman that he has fallen in love with, like he was really torn. And so, um, you know, any says something very important and I believe that we probably need to pray this off of us because they spoke something that is like, we will not be welcomed in ministry. And that has been evident for our lives. Like we spend many nights asking dad, what are you going to use us? How are you going to use this? We're willing, we're ready. We are available. You say it and we're going to do it. You told us to adopt three beautiful kids. We did it. You know? And so
Speaker 3 00:15:33 I think that like what to highlight, what Randy just said was that, you know, so we moved to Houston and initially when we moved here, I'm thinking, okay, there's no mountains here. There's no rivers that I would actually want to get in. And, but, um, wow. Look at all these people they're so diverse and this is a place that I feel like we can land safely. And so we, we got married and we were young and you know, I was very naive about the world. We, we knew that we wouldn't necessarily fit into a, uh, homogenously black church. And we certainly, from our experience, what didn't fit into a church that was white. Um, so we, we knew early on that we wanted to find a church that, that, you know, look diverse. And so we would feel more welcome. So we were introduced to one church that was racially diverse and I let them know right off the bat.
Speaker 3 00:16:36 Well, first of all, they, we felt welcomed. As soon as he walked in the door, we felt welcomed. In fact, um, there were quite a few people in a youth ministry that I reached out to us very quickly and we got tied in with the youth ministry quickly. It wasn't long that I started leading worship for the youth ministry and, and, uh, preaching on Wednesday nights for the youth. And we felt like this is a, this is the place, right? Because at least my wife could see herself in the members. Right. Um, and so they knew my intentions and what I wanted to do. We wanted to be in ministry together. And, uh, so we served faithfully. Um, and, but when it came time for them to need a youth pastor, uh, they continuously kept hiring other people, specifically white men with, with white wives, for Hispanic, white, Hispanic.
Speaker 3 00:17:30 And we, um, we didn't really want to think anything of it. Like maybe, Hey, maybe it's just not God's timing. And we certainly didn't want to be like, skeptical about anything. We started noticing though it were, will raised her and to noticing I was still oblivious that whenever we would walk, even down the, the pastors, the leaders, you know, uh, you know, and everyone that wanted to be in the mix would always come and say hi to me, give me a hug or high five or whatever. And almost pretend like Randy didn't exist. And it took me a while at first. I didn't want to believe it. And I would, I really just didn't want to believe it. I was like, no, babe, no Bailey. You know, but the truth was that, that was the case. Um, one time I remember a member of the church just saying he know the pastors and the leaders, they like you guys. I just don't think you guys really fit the culture here. Wow.
Speaker 4 00:18:25 But what they're saying is right.
Speaker 3 00:18:28 Yeah. Our marriage doesn't fit their culture. So we, we left, but, but we didn't want, we didn't necessarily want to. We, what we wanted to do is we wanted to find a place to belong. But if my wife didn't feel like she belonged in, you know, we both had to go, we went to another church that was also diverse that we were recommended to go to this time. It was, um, the ratio of black members to white members was much higher. Um, it was probably about 40 or 50% black, um, at the church. And, uh, we were just like the other church welcomed very quickly into the door. You know, they give you like a gift in the mail.
Speaker 4 00:19:14 Hey, come meet the pastors in the back.
Speaker 3 00:19:17 So, um, you know, we ended up within a week or two giving our numbers out, uh, within a month, uh, sitting down with the senior, uh, pastors to let them know, Hey, I'm here to serve, but I want you to know that my wife and I, we want to be in ministry. This is, this is what we want. And I don't want you to think I have some kind of agenda. I want to, I want to be a youth pastor. Um, and if that means I have to sit and serve for as long as it takes, I'll do what I have to do. But I loved the youth pastor that was there. And, and they were looking for other leaders to come up. Same exact story. I mean, they let me preach on Wednesday nights all the time. They let me lead worship all the time. Same story for Randy.
Speaker 5 00:20:04 Wow.
Speaker 3 00:20:05 So if Randy's like, what's wrong with me, you know? And, um, that was really a hard time for you. I know. Um, and you know, they had every excuse in the book. Like we want you guys to be youth directors, but we cannot afford to pay you. But then as soon as they told us that they hired like three white guys, three white guys and white wives and all come coming from the same specific denomination. And we're like, man, we're blind to something here because wow.
Speaker 4 00:20:37 It just starts the question. You're like it start what happened to me and started made me question who I was serving my God, if you're for all people, then here I am. 23, 24 telling you use me. Um, you know, created me a new heart. Show me my ways because I started reflecting on self and saying like, maybe it's something like wrong with me. Maybe I'm not as smart, but I just went to one of the top universities, liberal arts universities in the country. But yet Christian Church, they don't see my value, um, evangelical white church. So I just, I didn't, um, I didn't belong. And so we went to another church, um, they're referred to you as colored that. And then we told them the same thing or looking to be pastors, youth, pastors. We know about it as a calling on our lives. And the funny, it's not funny, every church we've gone to, they have told us, I see you guys as world changers.
Speaker 4 00:21:45 They've spoken to this church, every single church, but have yet, so you want to use us, um, on staff. And so the church that we went to, um, they invited us, the pastors invited us to have lunch with them and we would always get invited to dinner, lunch, like whatever. Um, Adam would get invited and he'll just let me know. That's, you know, they've invited us, let's go. And so, um, we're at the round table, I'm the only black person there. And one of the pastor sets, you know? Yeah. Like the colored girl. Wow. So at that moment I just set out and let's get our stuff and let's go because I knew at that moment, and this is nothing that I make up. Like a lot of people think that black people make these, these up, this reality that happens in that we're looking for racism or we're looking to be singled out or we're looking to serve God.
Speaker 4 00:22:46 I was looking for God to use me the way that he's used every person in that church. Um, and so I, I told him, I was gonna say, I'm done with church. And so I took a sabbatical. I didn't go to church, um, for maybe two years a year or two. And I wasn't upset with God. I was just done with, because I still saw the, the favor and the, the, the love that God had for me and what he was doing in me. I just couldn't be in an environment where that didn't, that didn't welcome me. Didn't value me. And didn't uplift me as a person and as a child of God, you know? And so, um, I started, started going online and going to Instagram and seeing like, God's given me another, it's like when I started CrossFit, I started looking at the CrossFit posts for a year until I got the chips to actually, and say,
Speaker 3 00:23:46 I'm ready. I think I can do this. Right. So I started doing the same thing, looking for churches, seeing what I can, you know, where I can be a part of. And our current church we go to is amazing. Like it is, this is a church where I have felt valued. I felt welcome and I have felt uplifted, you know? Um, and so it still has, it still has its growth that it needs. Um, I will say that what we learned, uh, through all of that pain is that there are systems in place within the evangelical church that we both were raised in that, um, that have systems of white supremacy. I think that was louder. I think that word can really offend a lot of, of white male Christians, especially. But, um, and cause usually when people consider the idea of white supremacy, I instantly think of KKK and in white robes, but you know, white supremacy really is just, um, to put it in very like layman's terms is, is systems where whites benefit, right?
Speaker 3 00:24:59 And it's, it's as simple as that. So if you're, if you benefit because of whiteness, then you are involved in some sort of system of white supremacy. It doesn't necessarily mean that you hate black and Brown people. It just is what it is. And Randy and I were naive enough and our youth to think that, you know, just because God accepts our union and loves our union, doesn't necessarily mean that the church at large is ready for it. And we're kind of ahead of the culture. And you can see people younger than us that are, I'm a little more apt to having, you know, biracial kids. And you can also see that the co our culture, Christianity culture, they would accept the black guy with a white wife to be, I was actually gonna say that, yeah, I was accepted and yeah.
Speaker 1 00:25:53 Oh yeah. A hundred percent.
Speaker 3 00:25:55 Yeah. We can unpack that for hours.
Speaker 1 00:25:57 You could unpack that for hours. That's the real truth. But yeah, I mean, I had, I had thought that the same thing, and so I'm glad that you said that, but something I'm want to say when you, when you, when you're saying that white supremacy and I'm, I'm getting a little, I'm getting a little sassy because of the time frame that we're in right now. And we talked about that a little bit before we started recording, but you're right. And I would say, I'm not, I'm not going to, um, I'm not going to, like, I'm not going to call you out at them, but what I am going to say, because, because, um, I was having this discussion with my husband and I actually had this discussion with my dad today. Um, so my dad is white. My husband is white. My mom is Mexican American.
Speaker 1 00:26:38 And so growing up and even as a young adult, I would say, I actually, I would kind of joke and say, I look generically ethnic. Um, you know, so like airports, aren't super fun for me and the corporate world. Wasn't a blast, but in just like my normal everyday life, especially in Houston, it's not really that big of a deal, but, um, you know, I, my husband and I were talking about this and the reason I, I bring it up with you is to say, yes, there is a, there is a lot of naivety there because he he's used this analogy. Cause he's like, he's getting woke right now, which I'm like super excited about it. But, um, but, um, but he said, Oh my goodness. He's like, it's like, I'm a fish. And I've been swimming in the ocean. And someone says something to me about a seal or a turtle, or, you know, some animal that can live on land and water and I'm going, why would I go on the land?
Speaker 1 00:27:36 Like, I'll die if I go up there, you know? And, and he's like, but when you swim in the ocean, you're a fish and you live in the ocean, you don't even recognize that there's a whole other world out there. And so it's like you were interning at this church and having a good time and doing all of the things and being in the crowd, be in, in the, in crowd and, you know, having all this favor and all of this stuff, because you're a white man and it didn't, you know, and like, and that, I'm not going to put words in your mouth, but like dating a black woman, woke you up to the fact to the white supremacy that was raining in that place where you were like, Whoa, like everything was hunky Dory for me until yeah. Until I, you know, brought this black woman into my life in spike woman entered into my life.
Speaker 1 00:28:23 And now all of a sudden things are not hunky Dory for me anymore. And, um, and one of, one of the things I was thinking about when, when you guys were talking is I think something that I've heard a lot of people reflect on right now. And I'm saying right now, we're recording this on an early June, the country buried George Floyd this week. Um, there have been riots for two weeks, you know, protests and riots for two weeks. And, um, and what, I'm, what I'm hearing from a lot of the voices, black and white, who are calling out things that are happening in the, in the white evangelical church right now is saying, calling out racism is not divisive. Racism is divisive. Sure. Calling out white supremacy is not divisive. White supremacy is divisive, you know? And so I'm saying that because there might be people who hear your story and say, Oh, well, gee whiz, what do you expect?
Speaker 1 00:29:29 They left this place. They left that place. They left this place. Right. And this is not something new. I'm sure you guys have heard that before had that reflected back on you. But it's like, I mean, I have thought the same thing because I have things to my, some of my friends that they don't agree with. Um, and, and I'm, I've struggled with that. Well, I don't want to be divisive. Well guess what, calling it out is not divisive. The thing itself is divisive, right? White supremacy raining inside of a church is divisive racism as a system in our country is divisive calling it out and, and bringing it to light is how we can reconcile it and, and begin that work. Am I off?
Speaker 3 00:30:18 No, you're, you're, you're, you're spot on. Um, it needs to be called out. Um, and it needs to be called out, uh, not just by, by, by black box and needs to be called out by whites, by everyone, by anyone that like Jesus is willing to turn over the tables. Um, and it, I would rather you call it out and say something wrong and, and in your whiteness not know the right lingo or might accidentally spew out a microaggression or some kind, but I would rather you, I would rather you call it out than be silent. You know, there's like this, there's a saying, um, white silence is violence. Um, because you know, you can either be, uh, an, uh, a racist, um, where you were actively racist, uh, or you can be compliant in racism, which means that you're silent and there's a system that's going on, but if you'd benefit from the system, right, then you'll be silent on the system because it doesn't directly affect you.
Speaker 3 00:31:24 And so you have, you know, unless you engage with people of difference and really try to get into their world, you like empathy for their struggles, or you can be an anti-racist. So you can, you know, you have to choose between those, the only caution that I have for, for pastures and also for just white church members that are now woke, like you said, calling it out is that, um, I want you to imagine, um, so I'm from Washington, like I said, in Mount st. Helens, uh, is a, a volcanic mountain that blew right before I was born. So I never got to see and blow. Okay. But, um, I heard stories about it. It didn't directly affect me heard stories about it. I even remember going out into the Olympic forest with my school. And one of the teachers saying here's a layer of Ash of something that once was.
Speaker 3 00:32:24 And I remember just hearing a few stories here and there and, and having a good time hiking close to the mountain. And, and that was pretty much it, those people that lived by the mountain, uh, the volcanic mountain at the time that their lives were forever changed. They lost their homes. They were heavily affected, but those that either, uh, you know, well, for those that were not in the vicinity, uh, you know, might've seen the clouds from a distance not really heavily affected. Um, so very few people were affected, but everyone, at some point saw the atrocities or heard of the atrocities. The reality is, is that after a while, all the plant life that died soon, grew back, Randy is a biology person. So what do you call that? It's a form of ecological succession, ecological. Okay. But here's the deal. The volcano was always active for hundreds of years.
Speaker 3 00:33:31 It was active. People were living right next to them building houses right next to it. There were animals walking all around it, people hiking all around it. All of the sudden there was this shift, this crack, okay. And then there was this violent first and everyone that was blind to the reality that there was a, and the volcano underneath them got very scared and spoke out and everybody run and whatever, whatever, and we're all affected. And we all talked about it. Right. Well, I think you understand the parallel, right? So it's, what I'm trying to say is that, you know, these instances of where social justice reform needs to take place and where we're, you know, we're all out. A lot of us are out on the street and we're saying black lives matter. And, and we're having, you know, conversations, uh, pastors right now, uh, are having prayer nights, pastors, right now we're having zoom calls and they're talking about it. Right. Okay. That's great. But what happens when the lava cools and hardens and the plants and everything come back together, what do you still have? You still have a dangerous system that we're all walking in. And so we have to do more than, um, social justice. What we need is reconciliation. What we really, really need is to understand who our, as brothers and sisters in Christ and value each other the same way that God values us. Right.
Speaker 6 00:35:14 Right. I mean, that's, that's well said, Adam. Um, so let's use that and let's talk a little bit about how you guys encourage pastors and churches to do just that, because I want to say at the sailor project, just for everybody's information and edification, you
Speaker 1 00:35:38 Guys didn't create the sale of project this year, this month, this week when people started protesting in the streets. So you, God gave you guys a vision and a mission and a work to do, because he is all knowing, because he knows. And you guys know from your experience that you just shared that this is work, that needs to be done inside of the door.
Speaker 4 00:36:04 So
Speaker 1 00:36:04 How do you guys, I would say, how do you guys do this? What, what do you do? Because you've seen that not all churches have an environment that fosters diversity inclusion, um, you know, what, give, give us some insight into that, into that kind of like first level of, of,
Speaker 4 00:36:33 So the first, first thing we started in 2015 out of pain, um, and really using our paints of launch something that would be edifying to that, you know, we kept getting no from people. So we were like, okay, God will create whatever you have us to create. And we've always cause race relations have been something dear to us because it's happened to us or assembly, aunts are older three. Um, so we decided that we're going to create the sailor project. And sailor just needs to pause to think though, you know, just to take a moment. And, um, we allow, we always say, this is not a check Mark. Our training is not a check. Mark is a birth. Mark is something that you have to so forever. Um, we're not checking off. Okay. We're diverse. No, it's, it's a way of being. And so we have, first of all, we go to churches and we look in assess the need that they are wanting.
Speaker 4 00:37:34 So we meet with the executive team to see the issues that may arise and, um, get a heartbeat of what they're trying to accomplish as a, as a executive team or as a congregation. Um, we, um, then after that we create a, uh, training, the first day would be unconscious bias, reflecting on self first. We can't reflect on the church if we haven't reflected on our own being and what that looks like for us, because a lot of what we do is a reflection of what is done in the church. Um, and so after we go through that training, which is a day long of unpacking, unconscious bias, unpacking, um, just our brain, how our brain functions when it starts, when we start having unconscious bias, which is at the age of three, um, and learning about microaggressions, learning about stereotypes, learning how to be competent with culture competent with our diversity that we do have, um, that's day one, day two, and Adam, you can add more day two is looking at the workplace bias. Like how do we bring our personal bias into our workplace? And then if it's brought into our workplace, how does that look inside of the church walls and look in your social media? How does it look with the songs you're seeing? How does it look with the message that you're portraying or even the leadership that you have? Like, what are you telling the world outside of your bubble? Right.
Speaker 1 00:39:13 It's so good. What, I'm, what I'm hearing when I, when I'm reflecting on that unconscious bias, and you talked about microaggressions, um, before, and I was, um, I actually shared this story in a different, on a different interview, but, um, I was with one of my black girlfriends right after it was mother's day weekend. So it was right after, um, uh, Marbury's murder became public and we were talking and I, um, and we were, we were having this conversation about race and, and I said to her, just in this like friendship moment, I just said, do you think that white people think that this is in your imagination specifically talking about microaggressions. Right. And she's like, of course I do. You know, like obviously, right. Like, yes, obviously, like you're saying like this, this kind of like other reality. And, and I was chatting with, but with another one of my podcast guests, about how, when, when we grew up, it was, um, uh, colorblind, that was the, that was the phrasing were probably similarly aged.
Speaker 1 00:40:21 So I figure like, this is, this is something that we grew up, but with my what's, what's hit me more when you're talking about unconscious bias. And I just want to say this out loud, because I feel like it's, it's extremely obvious, but I feel like I need to say it out loud, which is the SA the, the sense that we're using for unconscious bias, most of the time is site. Right? And so this is something like where you say this isn't because someone speaks with an accent. This isn't because you're looking and you see the house that someone came out of and you're starting to make connections, or this, this isn't any of those things. And I've seen that probably like your family, but my family is, um, the, the racial aspects of my family are younger because my son is only six and he's only been with us since he was two.
Speaker 1 00:41:08 And so we have had these experiences where, you know, we're walking to school together. He and I were just having a conversation and he calls me mom and someone whips around, you know, because we recognize that we don't look the same, but they don't know anything about us. They just know we don't look the same or a sweet little girl in the neighborhood called our family out to her dad and told him, had a tiny argument with him about how we, we must have been a group of friends because we were, the six of us were riding together. And, um, and from looking at us that we must have been a group of friends. Her dad said, no, sweetie. I think that's a family shoot, no, daddy. They must be a group of friends. And they had kind of had an argument as we were driving. We weren't saying anything. She just observed us with her eyes and assumed something about us. That wasn't true. And, and that is, I feel like I just need to put that out there and say that out loud to say, this is the sense that we, people in general are using most of the time when it's unconscious bias. Some of those microaggressions come out with our prejudices are made known. It's just because of what we see.
Speaker 4 00:42:19 Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:42:20 That's it like, like I said, like, this is an audio and, and, and we're having this conversation and Adam leans in and says, by the way, I'm white, my wife is black. Yes. Because no one would know that if you didn't say that because they can't see you, like, I can see you right now. Well, now they're going to have your headshot on the thing. So on the promo. But anyway, if someone was just listening to this, they wouldn't know. Right. There's no way for someone to know. And I don't know why I feel like that's kind of important to throw out there right now, but I feel like it is because it really is kind of that's that simple in some ways, it's just, you're just looking at somebody. And it's like, when you think about it like that, it's like, it feels hard. It feels hard because it's, you're just looking at someone it's just your site.
Speaker 4 00:43:11 I also think that as humans, we want to categorize, we want to make sense of what we see. And so to make sense of what we see it conferences to comfort us to know, okay, it's not a me problem. This is, they're definitely friends. That's that, that is just what it is, you know? And if there's no organization for our brain to make sense of, we create that organization for our own pain. So can appease ourselves to feel better about the situation because having a black child with a white family, that's, that's not normal. Right. I don't have a category for that. You're right. You're right. I will make a category two to help myself feel comfortable.
Speaker 1 00:43:55 Right. Right. And even in your marriage, even it kind of go back to that for two seconds. Even in, even in interracial marriages, there is more of a category for a black husband and a white wife. Then there is a category for a black wife and a white husband. Yeah. There, even though there, there was more of a category for that. So I'm getting an education here, but go ahead, Adam or Randy, or whoever's next?
Speaker 4 00:44:19 Well, the highlight should a scriptural reference to what you're saying about the eyes. So the Bible in Matthew six 22 says that the eye is the lamp of the body. So if your eye
Speaker 7 00:44:32 Is healthy, your whole body will be full of light. Come on. And so, you know, unconscious bias training is very biblical. Your unconscious bias training. What it does is, is it gives you the tools that you need to keep your eyes healthy. Wow. Right.
Speaker 4 00:44:52 But also the three, you have your body, your soul and your spirit. And most of the time we're operating out of our soul, which is all of our emotions. So we, we inhibit the spirit to have eyes of Jesus, to see all of us, to really reflect all of what he has created and say that that is good. That is all good. And so to not be colorblind yeah.
Speaker 7 00:45:16 But to see color, to see color, to see, um, wow. You know, like, uh, if you have a black friend, they sh they would have probably already told you, if you have ears to hear, please don't say your colored absolutely blind. Cause they say, I couldn't agree more that, um, that you're basically telling me that you don't seem like experiences if you don't see my color. And so, yeah, we don't, we're not color blind where, um, you know, we see all of, we see all of people, we see the, we see the God in you. And then we also see the beauty of how he made you. And we take everything in, um, because if we don't, then we can't develop empathy for people.
Speaker 4 00:46:05 So our first day is to really develop that empathy. But not only just to keep it there, you know, you have to do something with that empathy and make an action. And so one thing that we've we've, we love so much is that when we do these trainings, we'll get text messages. Oh, I used action today, date it out and say, Hey, you're, you're you. This is not right in a godly way. And so it's also important to say in our training, people want us to give them an answer to how to fix it. It's not up to us. It's up to, so we have a moment of, um, just allowing the Holy spirit to really speak to your heart and allow you to see where you have been wrong with his people. Um, and how you have the foul yourself, your temple, um, with your thoughts.
Speaker 4 00:46:54 And this is not just for white people. This is for all people, you know? And so, um, it's, it's beautiful to see that when we tell them this is a God word, this is not a Randy and Adam work. They're like, Oh, okay. So I'll just go back and start praying again. Right, right. Answer to fix it. But that's not our job. Our job is to bring awareness, to train you, to show you, and then allow the Holy spirit. Because I believe that the Holy spirit does something in your heart. That's going to be more permanent than a human doing that. Amen.
Speaker 1 00:47:30 So tell me why, why do pastors call you? They know what you do and, and, and without disclosing any, anybody who's called you or any church has called you, but what are some of the reasons that you're given when, when they're like, we need your help. Yeah. Obviously I feel like that. I mean, that's got to be step zero. Step one is somebody even recognizing, wow, like we're missing something here. Like why, why do they even call you
Speaker 3 00:48:02 Emails, emails from members? You know? Um, I think that a lot of times, because in generally, so, you know, usually when we're talking to a black pastor, it's because we're asking them for advice or they're, you know, they're, they're allies in the work. And, uh, but it's usually when we're talking to a white pastor, it's usually because, um, they've come across a blind spot and then not need to sure. How to navigate that blind spot. Um, and they might feel a little bit of fear, a little bit of avoidance, but it's usually like, you know, emails from staff or members that are saying, Hey, like, I didn't like it when this happened or post Facebook posts, you know, things like that. I would say that more often than not, it's usually reactive. Um, but, and that's okay. It's better to start a reactive than to not start the work at all.
Speaker 1 00:48:57 Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I, I, uh, did a little bit of like anecdotal type research before I hopped on with you guys this week. And I texted one of my girlfriends who goes to a really diverse church. And, um, it's, it's here in town when we were first, um, uh, kind of searching for a church. She and her husband invited us, uh, um, you know, to, to go to their church. And I was amazed. Like I had never seen anything like it, it was top down left and right everywhere you looked there was diversity and it was incredible. It was just like, it was a breath of fresh air. So I texted her like this series of questions, cause I'm like, listen, getting ready to do this podcast interview. This is what, you know, this couple does. And, you know, basically like, how did your church get to be the way it is?
Speaker 1 00:49:58 And I kind of asked her, was it from, you know, like, was it, was it basically like a reactive thing? Was it, you know, something like that. And she said, you know, Hey, can I call you and talk about this? And so she did, but she said really there there's was kind of a unique situation. I think, where it was from the founding of this church. And it wasn't just racially diverse. I asked her about socioeconomics. I asked her about, you know, all this. And she was like, yeah. I mean, we have people who like need the food bank and heard rumors. There's a couple of millionaires, you know, she was like, and yeah, of course I saw with my, with my eyes and when I was there, the racial diversity and they love it. And, and I loved it and our kids loved it. And it was just a really, really great experience. But the reason I called her, the reason I texted her was because I feel like in my experience, that is the exception and not the rule in America. Can you talk to your experience and the stats cause you've, you guys have done the research too. So, um, what is the norm?
Speaker 3 00:51:07 That's an opposite.
Speaker 1 00:51:08 That's not, I knew enough to know that's not the norm, but what is the norm?
Speaker 3 00:51:14 Um, I'd say that the norm right now is that churches are more inclined to be racially diverse, not so much a multicultural, um, as much as racially diverse, as far as the membership, um, because we're so used to going to school together. We're so used to working together now. Um, you know, all of the, everything that's happened since desegregation has moved us closer and closer together, even though as you know, and anyone that lives in America, that neighborhoods are still, um, somewhat, uh, segregated, you know, uh, they're four times more, um, desegregated in the churches. So
Speaker 1 00:52:08 When I read that stat on your website, I kind of flipped out. So let's, let's say that again. It says the neighborhoods are four times more
Speaker 3 00:52:20 Diverse. Yes. Then the church,
Speaker 1 00:52:23 If you're in America and you live in a neighborhood,
Speaker 3 00:52:27 It's most likely, it's not that diverse. Well, you experienced it with you when you guys, you know, like not, not you, but people have experienced it when they try to find, um, a church in their neighborhood to give back. And then they're like, well, what happened? You know, we live in a diverse neighborhood, but I'm quite sure our church is going to be predominantly one race.
Speaker 1 00:52:52 Right. I mean, and, and that's, that's the, that's the crazy thing, you know? I mean, I don't mind sharing, you know, an example from our life where we had walked into a couple of different churches and they were in neighborhoods close, very close to ours. So just a few minutes drive. Um, and we walked in and there were almost exclusively white people and, you know, a couple of these instances and I, it's funny because we're at different kind of at different stages, you know, um, personally, like I, uh, you know, shared with you before, like my mother is Mexican American. Um, so I grew up different than my husband. Who's white grew up in a homogenous town in Colorado. Um, but now we have a black son. And so like, it's funny because my husband is now recognizing, Oh, I felt super comfortable in that place. And then if you press it just one step further, he's able to say, I felt super comfortable because everyone looks like me, you know? And then I walk in and I say, yeah, but no one looks like our son. No, no one here looks like our son and I want our son to have the experiences of, and I'm just going to say it and who knows, maybe I'll step on some people's toes. It's not necessarily intentional, but you got to call stuff out. If we're going to reconcile. I want my black son at school at church, in other community organizations to see people in charge.
Speaker 3 00:54:32 Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's heaven. That's, you know, that's the that's heaven's goal for your son to send out. That was, that was Jesus's goal for your son as what? Um, and certainly he taught us the way since he is the way. Um, but we got it all mixed up. Um, and unfortunately it started back in 16, 19. Well, yeah, well before then, too, but, um, in America, right?
Speaker 1 00:55:03 Oh, I'm reading stamped from the beginning right now, dr. Kendi. And, uh, I'm not even to 16, 19 yet. We're not even at 16, 19 yet. It's a 500 page book and we haven't, I haven't, I haven't cracked 16, 19, cause we're, we're back in the 14 hundreds right now.
Speaker 3 00:55:20 Yes, yes. Yeah. And he wrote the book how to be an antiracist. Right.
Speaker 1 00:55:26 Which hopefully will become available again at some point in print because it's completely sold out
Speaker 3 00:55:31 It's. Yeah. And I do love that. I love that about your favorite. I love it. That their books have been out for years. Yes. I've been telling you, I follow them. I'm a New York time bestseller.
Speaker 1 00:55:48 Absolutely. I mean, I heard Abraham candy on NPR when the, when, how to be an anti-racist came out and I'm like, wait, this wasn't two weeks ago. How do we manage our racist has been out. It's been out people it's been out. It's been out for a while. Guess what be the bridge has been out for a while.
Speaker 3 00:56:07 She's best seller. Right.
Speaker 1 00:56:08 Seller right now, Joe marches. We've been out for a while.
Speaker 3 00:56:11 In fact, we have about 30 books on it on diversity and anti-racism, if anyone wants to send DMS, we'll sell it to you 10 times the price though.
Speaker 6 00:56:24 I've been doing the work in the first place. No, I mean, so let's take, let's take that for just one second, because I'm, I'm going to just put this out there because you've talked about the system we're talking about the system and the church. Um, but so be the bridge Latasha Morrison. Let's give it, let's give a shout out. Let's hear this, but Hey, listen, I want to have you on the podcast if you're hearing this. But anyway, so I read me the bridge last year. Um, I think it just came out last year, but I've got a pretty quick, um, after it came out. Um, but I grew up in Oklahoma, like, I mean like my whole, like my whole life grew up in Oklahoma. So read 12 years of Oklahoma history. Okay. 12 years of Oklahoma history. Would you like to know when I learned about the Tulsa race massacre?
Speaker 6 00:57:18 When I read Latasha Morrison's booklet? Yeah. When I read Latasha Morrison's book last year, I was, I was that old. I had been out of Oklahoma public schools for 20 years. And I first learned about the race riots in 1920 in Tulsa, in Tulsa when I read her book. And so I'm not even going to spoil it for you guys. If, if, if, if you, if you are listening and you haven't heard about that, especially right now, just Google it, Tulsa race riots is probably going to be what comes up, just Google. It, it's an absolute atrocity. And, and, and I grew up in Oklahoma. This is our history and I had no idea. And then I tried to find additional information on it and just finding stuff was torturous because it just doesn't even exist. I found it, my I, my husband sent me an article from where they interviewed a survivor.
Speaker 6 00:58:29 Like, I mean, it was crazy, right. She was a child. And this happened in several years ago. One of the major newspapers had interviewed a survivor, um, of that time, but it was, it was crazy to even find it. So it's, it's, it's there and it's 16, 19, and it's 14 hundreds and it's 1920. And in 2020, how to be an anti-racist is sold out praise God and be the bridges on the New York times bestseller list and color of compromises moving up in Amazon sales. Right. Powerful. We're watching the video right now. We were just watching it today. It's yeah. I mean, yeah, we, we were, we start we're on episode four or five or something like that because that's free. This probably won't come out before that, before it ends, but spring on Amazon right now. But, but I mean, not to get off on a complete tangent there, but it's just like, sometimes it's reactive.
Speaker 6 00:59:24 Like you said, Adam, sometimes it's reactive. It's not common that it's, that it's there, but your neighborhood, my neighborhood is probably four times more diverse than the church and the other stat I saw on your site, if I can share it, that just was crazy. Um, was that 85% of senior pastors say they should prioritize diversity, but only 12% of churches actually reflect diversity. And I want you to unpack that, but it made me think of, you know, like when like several years ago I had a personal trainer and one of the things they say is, unless you, unless you write stuff down, it's our natural bent that we're going to think we're exercising more than we actually are. And we think we're eating less than we actually are because we're not keeping track of it. And so I feel like it's kind of the same thing. Like we think we're doing better than we really are when it comes to diversity in the church, we say we should, but where's the breakdown.
Speaker 3 01:00:34 I would imagine over 85% of those same pastors believe that they should floss twice a day. And I believe that a lot of them probably don't floss twice a day until you get a cavity and you realize, Oh, I have to get a root canal. And Oh, this, this affects me. And that's, that's the whole point is that if it doesn't directly affect us, then you know, real systematic changes won't take place. But here's the thing we have to repent of the idea that it doesn't affect us, because if we truly lived out this Christian life, that we are the body and that when you suffer, I suffer and it's not to just be some sort of like cute analogy that literally when my brothers suffer because of what's happening, I suffered, I literally cry with you. I literally, I literally cry with, um, I don't just kind of feel sorry, man.
Speaker 3 01:01:44 I'm so sorry. Let me send them my buddies a quick text. I know this that what's happening right now is psychologically detrimental to my brothers and sisters in Christ that what has happened. Um, uh, these recent events have retraumatized, our black brothers and sisters in Christ and your trauma is my trauma. Right? And so that, that really is like the easiest way that I can say that the stats are so I'm in your face. And then, you know, at the same time, uh, the evangelical church at large is best known as being kind of a social club. And so pastors, um, have this kind of difficult decision on, do I appease my wealthy white, uh Tyler's and keep things kind of the status quo or do I speak out? Do I reach out to those who might not benefit my platform? It's kind of a risk that a lot of pastors have finally from my observation are actually taken. I, you know, I'm seeing multiple white evangelical pastors speak out in, get trampled on we're speaking out. And I am saying, great job. Keep that up, keep, keep the work. There's a lot more work to do, but I, I truly believe that that's why the statistic is where it is. Um, and in that statistic was not from 2020. So I imagine that within the next few years, if we keep doing the work, I get to take them off the website.
Speaker 1 01:03:31 Wow. I can't wait. I can't wait. I mean, Randy, I don't know if you know this, but your husband, he just, he just says it. He just, okay. Cause I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm attempted to ask what you are on the Enneagram. Cause I feel like he might be the same.
Speaker 3 01:03:45 That's my husband. Cause he just says it.
Speaker 1 01:03:48 She just says it. I mean, whew,
Speaker 3 01:03:52 10 years of him, his silence that has allowed him to start saying it.
Speaker 1 01:03:57 But I think it's, it goes back to that. What I felt like I got earlier, which was this isn't, it, it feels uncomfortable. Yeah. That feels uncomfortable. And it's going to feel uncomfortable for a lot of people when they hear it right now. But that's not the discomfort that we need to be worried about. That's not what we need is people like you guys who are calling this out in
Speaker 3 01:04:23 No that's right.
Speaker 1 01:04:26 And saying what you said, this is what Jesus wants. There's a better way.
Speaker 3 01:04:30 Yeah. So I'll give you an example of like, I use my social media sometimes to just display what's going on in our lives. Um, and I usually, I really use it for my kids to have a storybook for when they get older, they can flip through it and say, Oh mom, you, Kelsey, you know, you posted that. What's wrong with you. But now that they're teenagers, I should probably ask them when they younger. But anyway, but, um, April the 30th, our 13 year old twin boys, um, I mean, we've been at this, stay at home, you know, order and they needed to get out. And so Adam and I were like, okay, it's like seven o'clock you guys go take a job. Right. Um, and I'm getting off topic, but, um, there's a reason I'm saying this. We
Speaker 4 01:05:18 Told them to, um, go take a job and they've had racial. Um, how do I say it? They've had, um, racial profiling since they were 10.
Speaker 1 01:05:31 Okay. So they're adopted though. Yes. And so, and S and so what are they, are they biracial as well?
Speaker 4 01:05:39 Yes, they are.
Speaker 1 01:05:41 I feel like I've seen them on your Instagram and maybe that's why I was like, I wasn't sure. And so I think I actually assumed that they were not adopted.
Speaker 4 01:05:49 Yeah. So they look a lot like, yeah. And so, um, they look a lot like us, but they just shave their eyebrows for fun.
Speaker 1 01:05:57 That's what I saw, which was a Lariat, which yes. Social media for, I mean, mom, for the win on that, I was cracking up. Yes. I mean, my, my six year old, he actually took one of his sister's razors and did it to the side of his Mohawk
Speaker 4 01:06:11 Or the other day.
Speaker 1 01:06:13 Ooh, you just lost it, man. You don't get it anyway. Yes. I'm glad to know. It's not just mine anyway.
Speaker 4 01:06:19 Laptop. Yeah.
Speaker 1 01:06:22 But the eyebrows that's perfect because it didn't say, I hope it takes the long and slow
Speaker 4 01:06:26 For the spacecraft. We have, sorry. They were jogging. Sorry. Yes. So April 30th, they went on a jog and um, I usually pray silently cause I don't like to put my fear of what I experienced or what I think will possibly happen. So I just said, God, protect them, keep them safe and bring them back home to me. And so they, they run into the house and they're like, you wouldn't believe what happened. We got pulled over by the cops, running in our neighborhood, asking us, where are you going? Why are you running? Where should you? They're like, we're running around the neighborhood. You know, this is April 30th. And on my feet, I like to have a wide variety of different perspectives. So I have like, I have all types of people on Instagram and all types of people on Facebook. And I don't delete them when they say things.
Speaker 4 01:07:24 I like to see that. Cause I like to know what is going on. Like I like it personally. So we've gotten a lot of comments from people like you just make up race issues. You do this, you do this, you, you target your kids, you target them. You make them, you know, think that these things are happening. Like I was in my house when this happened. And so, um, I guess April 30th, may six. Uh, my Aubrey is in a neighborhood jogging and in dyes, you know, from the gunshot when, um, and I, I, I remember getting so many messages and text messages, Randy, I thought of your kids. I thought of your kids. I thought this could have been your kids. And I'm saying that is that the church is being awakening. Like there's an happening to show the church that these are not just made up stories.
Speaker 4 01:08:21 These are true life stories. And if the church does not change their way, we can't get to social justice until we get to self and reflect on self to be able to be true advocates for social justice and humanity like humanity. If we can most about, um, the hurricane remembering nine 11 remembering, um, hurricane Katrina, I Harvey, um, the tornadoes quickly, we should, we should quickly, um, send another pulse or whatever when it comes to a life being lost, no matter the color that we've all witnessed with our own eyes from social media. So I'm saying, what I'm saying is, is that the church has to wake up and I believe that God is calling us and the pastors to get it right. He's calling us to be his hands and feet for all people, not just a select few. Right. You know, and there's a lot of people say, well, I don't support the black lives matter.
Speaker 4 01:09:21 You don't have to support that movement, that light the organization. But right now, black lives need to matter. We're not saying that the matter we're saying right now in America, black lives are not met, does not matter. And if it did matter and I tell my husband this, if we did matter, we wouldn't be saying fill to this day in 2020, I'm the first African American to be the vice president of him, the president for MIT student body. We wouldn't be saying the first anything. Right. It wouldn't be a first, it would be equality for all right. I think even in a church, we have to get that. Right. Um, and it starts, it starts with Christians. I believed in order for the world to be where our country and the world to be. Right. I believe God has given us a mandate to get the church house. Right. So that we can infiltrate the world and make it right. Come on church,
Speaker 6 01:10:15 Come on church house. But you know, it's like you, thank you so much for that rainy. And thank you for sharing that about your boys. Um, you know, I was, I was having a chat with one of my girlfriends the other day. And, and, you know, we were just talking about relationships though, because, cause even when you're saying kind of go back to what you're saying, Adam, about like, we're, we need to mourn with people who are mourning, we need to, we need to grieve and cry, recognize that their trauma is my trauma. Like we need to be there. And if you think about, I would say many of us, many believers, where are our strongest friendships built? They're built inside the church, probably for a lot of people. I mean, you know, it's probably not workplace, that's probably real casual, you know? I mean most of us are out of school, right? So it's, it's not that
Speaker 1 01:11:14 You know, for the grownups, um, you know, it might be our neighbors, but maybe not. And, and, and our neighborhoods aren't super diverse anyway, but we're building those deep, deep friendships inside of the church. And if everybody inside of the church looks like me, then yes. On an individual scale, I can grieve with someone who's grieving. But on a, um, June, March has we did a great piece in, I think it was even in the Atlantic, it was about, about familial grief in the blind community. And, um, and, and, but if we don't have any black friends, you can't, and we don't feel that familial grief, you know, I, I called one of my girlfriends, uh, right after kind of all of this stuff had really, really hit its pinnacle. And we've talked a couple of times since then. We both have a lot of kids though. So it's hard for us to chat. But when I called her this week, she said, um, she, she disclosed to me. She said none of my other white friends
Speaker 3 01:12:18 Yeah.
Speaker 1 01:12:19 Or texted or anything. And when we had talked the first time we were saying it, there's no other words to, except for, to say, it feels like there's been a death in the family. Cause you know, I called her and I said, I said, Oh my goodness, I'm just calling. And she finished my Senate. She said, you're just calling to check on me. And I said, yeah, I am, you know, how are you doing? How's your husband? How, how are the kids? How are you guys holding up? And she's like, man, it's really heavy. You know? And so we were able to chat for a while and we talked again again this week, it was another heavy week. And um, and that's when she said, you know, none of, none of my white friends called and, and, and, and it's not a, you know, she's not being mean or upset about it or anything like that. And, and, and I'm, and I'm sitting here going, I don't know that they would notice that
Speaker 3 01:13:10 No, they wouldn't. No. I mean, unless, unless they have gone through the process of understanding the group dynamics of black Americans versus are individualistic, like we pointed out in America, America, like white Americans are individuals. So if a white person in my community gets shot, I mean, I'm like, wow. And then that's, that's too bad for bad for their kids or whatever, you know? But it doesn't, I don't feel like anything has happened to me as far as like family dynamics are concerned, especially if I don't know who you are, because we have the privilege as white Americans to be individ individuals and to, uh, and to separate our identity from other mother whites and kind of have the space to even think of ourselves that way you're not even called white, white American. You're called white. When I check a box, I'm African
Speaker 4 01:14:12 Black, American, Mexican American. We don't get to leave off the American part, which shows us that they really never wanted us here in a weight in anyway. So they tach, like you don't belong here, you became a citizen because we brought you, you know, it's like, it's an instant group that, and that's what, as it, as a whole, a majority of black and Brown people have those dynamics. And, um, yeah. So, yeah, it's, it's heavy. And I think even in our home, it's been, I feel like I was telling my husband. I said, I feel like something is like taking my breath away. Like, I just feel like, I feel like my brain is not functioning. Right. My, my voice, when I try to speak, I don't have the right words to say, I can't articulate, like what I'm trying to, like, it's a weird experience for me. Um, I've been weak. Um, and I'm trying to figure out like, what is it? And I'm, I'm grieving because it's it.
Speaker 4 01:15:24 I feel it. I feel, I feel the oppression and that's what I'm trying to fight is the oppression that is, and I know what oppression is because I've been taught in school that I'm not good enough. The systems and education is white supremacy, all written all over it. So as a, as a black girl going into public education, I have felt that oppression. And now I have words to put to that old Christian. Right. I know that feeling. I know, you know, I have, I had two white best friends, one text, one text me the other one didn't and she just said, how are you doing? And I was real with her. Um, but she didn't pick up the phone to call me. Right.
Speaker 1 01:16:22 But, you know, I think some of that self reflection though, right. And I'm just going to throw that out there. I'm saying, would I have known to call five years ago because I'm not trying to put on anybody else, but I'm saying like, I'm, I, I wasn't born into the black community, but I have a black son. Yeah. And I see my son in a mod Arbery and I see my son in Christian Cooper. I mean, let's not even forget about the whole central park situation. I see my son in George Floyd. I see my son. And because I have two sons, one who looks like me and one who doesn't. I know. And I knew I have known this because my black friends have told me this, that the talk is going to have to happen with one of my sons, not the other one. I have had these situations where I'm going to park down the street from our house. Our boys are young right now, but when they get to be the age of your twins, let's say they go play basketball down the street from our house at the park. And my youngest forgets his water bottle at home. So he runs home in a hoodie to grab his water bottle and go back to the park, to play ball.
Speaker 1 01:17:47 I have concerned for him more than his brother who might do the same thing, exact same thing. And that is real.
Speaker 4 01:17:59 Yeah. And that's not fair. And that's not fair that it's real real,
Speaker 1 01:18:07 But it's real. It's real. And, um, and that's part of the privilege. I think you were talking about Adam and part of the white supremacy is that we have to have our eyes opened to recognize the realness of that situation. And we don't always, and I know we're running out of time. We didn't get to half of the questions that we originally said we were going to talk about. But, um, but this is, this is a real conversation. This is a really good conversation. Um, because like I said, I I'm so thankful. God has put you guys in the place. I'm not, I'm not thankful for your pain, that it took you to get there, but I'm thankful that he has put you in a position right now.
Speaker 4 01:18:53 Yeah. You,
Speaker 1 01:18:55 He has done foundational work in you and done foundational work in the sale of project. And so here we are in 2020, the anti-racist books are sold out. You can not get a, hit your hand on some of this stuff. Some of these authors who have been out there hustling for so long are on the New York times bestseller list. And I am just praying that your ministry will not be able to keep up because pastors will want, and congregations will demand that their church looks different in 2021 and 22 and acts, come on,
Speaker 4 01:19:33 We don't want to just look like heaven. We want to act like Kevin,
Speaker 1 01:19:37 Say it again.
Speaker 4 01:19:39 Don't want to just look like heaven. We want to act like heaven. That's right. That comes with welcoming people, valuing people and uplifting people.
Speaker 1 01:19:51 Can we end there? Can you unpack those three things? And then I'll put like all of the kinds of links so that everybody can find everything you do. But that, that is like the thing I was looking at going, Oh, can we just say that again, unpack those three things and then we'll figure out a way to wrap it up. So we,
Speaker 7 01:20:09 Um, in our trainings, we teach diversity through those, those, uh, those three pillars welcome value and uplift people, um, is basically the process for diversity inclusion and equity. Right? Um, so what we have come to find out is that a majority of churches specifically diverse churches are very good at wealth, welcoming people, even in their marketing. Welcome home is a huge thing that you see on marketing and flyers and Instagram. Um, uh, and so what does that look like? Um, if you are a welcoming people, that means that in your church, shouldn't be the presence of difference, which is kind of how we define diversity. Diversity is the presence of difference, which basically means this. If you have a diverse church, um, it means that we, we love your membership. Um, you're welcome here to serve I'm on one of our teams, you could be on our prayer team.
Speaker 7 01:21:22 Um, you could even, you have your own cell group or connect group, whatever your church calls a day at your house. Um, and you're welcome to worship with us. Of course, you're welcome to tie. Um, but you're welcome to, and we want to make sure that when you come in that you feel like you are welcome. So that may look like, um, people that look like you that are welcoming you the door. We might even have one call like optic diversity. Um, we've become very good at that in the church to make sure that the optics look right. Um, and that's the, that's the first kind of step, if you will. Um, the second step is of value, which do you want to jump into that you want me to? Okay. So, so to value people means that you take a step beyond, uh, uh, welcoming folks in to participate as members of the church.
Speaker 7 01:22:22 But now folks are, um, with, with various identities outside of the dominant race and culture, and now valued and even leveraged, um, within a given setting. So whatever you offer, uh, we may use, this might look like now, you, we might let you on the stage to sing. We may pay you now to sing or play the drums. Uh, we may, uh, have a diverse verse staff, uh, which means that, you know, um, whether you're like a secretary or, um, you know, like the lower level will maybe even have diversity on staff that might look like gender diversity, race, diversity, ethnic diversity, and so on and so forth. Um, it just simply means that we see that you have a skill set. Um, some Christians are really good at calling it the anointing and, uh, and we're, we're happy to leverage it and we see you have a gift, right?
Speaker 7 01:23:28 So if your gift is media, we might actually now, uh, move you from membership to staff and actually use your expertise for our church and allow you to even give input on that. The last one is the most important, and that is what we call uplift people. So, uh, you'll, you'll see diversity and inclusion, uh, experts that work with corporate, they call it equity. Um, but we call it heaven. Um, uplifting means, uh, your church doesn't just look like heaven on earth. It acts like heaven on earth. Uh, equity ensures that everyone has access to the same opportunities at every level of an organization. You see welcoming and value. People might allow people with diverse, um, like cultures or if ethnically diverse to be at lower levels. But if you're, if you're upper staff like your campus, pastors, your, uh, uh, I don't really, you know, your executive pastors, your board of directors, if it's all like male and white, uh, welcoming and valuing people.
Speaker 7 01:24:43 And if you stop there, I hate to tell you this. Um, you might have, uh, traces of white supremacy, um, hidden within the fabric of your church. And, uh, the Lord wants to eradicate it. Um, Jesus came to free us from oppression and when a church uplifts people, and there's true equity on every level of your church organization, it means that you are fulfilling. Jesus's last prayer for unity in the body. And literally thinking about this, it took Jesus one prayer to raise the dead. He prayed three times before he was crucified for our unity three times. And it still hasn't come to pass three times. And in his prayer, he highlights something. He said in our unity, in his prayer, he said, and then they will know that you have sent me, listen, we don't need another revival meeting. I believe in miracles, we use all of the miracles signs and wonders that you've heard in the past. None of those things are going to convict the masses and bring them to Christ. The only thing that will bring people to cries is when they see the church. So unify that it's so not of this world, that they become jealous of our unity and they want what we have, and they will run to us. And the reason why they're not is because we are more divided than they are. Right.
Speaker 6 01:26:22 Wow. This is serious.
Speaker 7 01:26:28 It's literally, it's literally, it's literally, um, it's kingdom, it's kingdom work, but it's also, um, it's also very, um, it's heavy work. Yeah. It's, it's, it's like, it's, it feels like you're fighting against powers and principalities, and it doesn't just feel like, you know, if you do diversity work like in the school system or this, this feels like you're not fighting against flesh and blood, what we're doing, this feels like you're fighting against like, like spiritual battles of wickedness. It feels like you're battling like realms, that, that if I were just going to be doing this work, like incorporate, I can just walk away from it, but we try to fail for this word. We cried. And we saw, we pray. We ask God, like, this is something that like, I feel like we're, this is the only thing that we can do to truly fulfill Christ's last prayer. He could have prayed for anything, anything. He didn't pray for me to get a BMW or a Porsche. Okay. Obviously he didn't hate no, he didn't. But you know, he didn't pray that we would have like some magical, super powers that we would, you know, that we would live a long and healthy life. He didn't pray. None of that. None of that. He just wanted us to be one that's saying that's it
Speaker 6 01:27:59 Of course fighting against powers and principalities, because it's like, you just said it. If, if we're United.
Speaker 7 01:28:06 Yeah. What, nothing can stand against us.
Speaker 6 01:28:11 Nothing. I mean, it's, that's powerful. That's, that's a powerful place to wrap it up. I feel like, thank you so much, Adam. That's that's legit. I mean, that's, that's really, that's really good. That's that's really good, Randy. That's really good.
Speaker 7 01:28:34 Like,
Speaker 6 01:28:35 Okay. And scene just drop it. And,
Speaker 7 01:28:41 Mmm.
Speaker 6 01:28:45 So where can they hear more of that?
Speaker 6 01:28:50 They're ready to hear more of that. Where can the people hear more of that? They can find you on this, on your website, but, but give us a little bit, and I'll put all the links in there. Okay. So they can find this at your sailor project. That, is it your underscore? No. I'm telling you about, I'm sorry. We need to have a training on communication versus impact. So that's called marriage. I mean your sailor project, um, that called WWF and then on Instagram is the underscores say love project. Randy, do you have any like last words that you want to leave everybody with? I just won't know. I think Adam said very well. I mean, you'd have to pick the mic back up if you did it.
Speaker 6 01:29:53 This is so much fun. I really don't want this to be the last time that we talk in real life or on the air. So maybe we could have you guys back, honestly, when things aren't so fresh. Yeah. Let's talk about, you know, any year, let's talk about where we are as a church body, as a church community. Um, you know, when some of the successive, what was the thing, the biology term, ecological succession, ecological succession. Come on, Adam. I'm not a scientist anyway, but you know, when, when we've had some new growth, right. Um, in this space, then, um, I would love to have you guys back and kind of talk about what you've seen, you know, can we take the statistics down yet? Um, you know, what does that look like? So, absolutely. All right. That sounds awesome. Thank you guys so much. I appreciate it. Thank you. So thank you again so much for listening. Don't forget to subscribe. So you won't miss an episode, share the link with your friends. You can visit
[email protected]. And until next time, this is Alexis B SETI, remembering to do well for ourselves so we can do good for others. Bye
Speaker 0 01:31:12 <inaudible>.
