Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:07 Welcome to that makes total sense. A podcast dedicated to exploring God's generosity and justice. I'm Alexis besetting the Christian, aiming to ask good questions and encouraging you to do the same. Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice, but the how sometimes alludes us that makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners and challenge one another to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way. Every day. Today,
Speaker 1 00:00:40 I am coming to you with a word that has been, um, just kind of heavy on my heart for the last, uh, few weeks or so. And really, I mean, I know when we look around, it's really not just the last few weeks it's been, you know, a year and a half or better that these kinds of things have been swirling. Um, so you've probably figured out at this point, this is a solo episode. We've got some great guests, um, that you can go back and listen to. And we've got some fantastic guests coming forward, but taking a little break and just doing, um, a short little personal word that I hope is meaningful to you. Um, as thinking about this and having these conversations has been to me. And I want to just talk for a minute and just kind of extend, not that anyone needs a word of permission, but, um, almost just this almost a word of permission though, to say, it's okay to sing songs
Speaker 2 00:01:40 Of limit.
Speaker 1 00:01:43 And I will say, it's not just, okay, it's actually really biblical. Um, it's what the people of God do. Uh, I would say it's what the people of God do. Or maybe we could argue that it's what the people of God ought to do. It's a practice that the people of God have really always done, but somehow at least in the Christian culture, that I've been a part of for most of my life. It's not something that we have really embraced. Um, in fact, in, in some cases we see lament as something that's, um, embarrassing or some kind of create a behavior that needs to be corrected as if, um, you know, we don't have enough faith and that's why we're letting these songs of lament come out or songs of complaint
Speaker 2 00:02:36 Come out.
Speaker 1 00:02:38 And part of it is I think that, um, we look back as at the Bible and we see the people of Israel and we kind of give them a bad rap. Honestly, we look at them now and we say, oh my goodness, they were just always complaining, you know, look at them in the wilderness. They're complaining, look at them in Babylon, they're complaining. But the truth is they have a lot of things to complain about. Their circumstances were awful. They were in war many times, they had seen terrible things and experienced terrible things, but they had a relationship with their deity with y'all way that warranted some kind of honesty about how horrible their lives were and how horrible their lives felt
Speaker 2 00:03:30 At times
Speaker 1 00:03:31 King David recorded songs of lament that his people still turn to for inspiration when otherwise it feels like the worst just can't come. Right. Uh, Jeremiah was also known as the weeping prophet and Jesus. We have to understand this Jesus even, and when he knew things were going to be okay, because for example, he was about to pull Lazarus straight out of that tomb. Even Jesus cried with his friends in their loss and the loss that they were all experiencing, whether it's okay for us to sing songs of limit, though, we often focus on singing songs of joy, right? And there's a place for that. And then church is certainly a place to sing songs of joy. But for those who are grieving, always singing the songs of triumph can just ring a little flat when there's real suffering, you know, when it's us or our neighbors, or just when we're aware of the suffering that happens in the world.
Speaker 1 00:04:46 So a week or two ago, I guess maybe it was just last week and just on day on just one news podcasts that I subscribe to. I found myself trying to catch up on world events and specifically on the tragedies that are happening in Afghanistan and Haiti. And that was after the president had been assassinated in Haiti. And then before the attacks on the airport, gates and Afghanistan, and those are just two countries look around us. We look locally for us in Houston, but around the world, COVID is still raging. There are reports of abuses happening in churches that just keep coming. There's ongoing crises at the border. And all of this to say, lament is appropriate in these situations. Limit is biblical limit is a human response and it is a divine response.
Speaker 2 00:05:50 And I
Speaker 1 00:05:50 Would go so far as to argue that when we try to consistently put on a happy face and worship, it's actually a form of dishonesty before God. And I don't mean that relying or rude intentionally trying to deceive God because that's not even possible. He can't be deceived. Um, but I just think that maybe we're not allowing ourselves to be completely honest
Speaker 2 00:06:14 With ourselves,
Speaker 1 00:06:17 Um, or even with one another, because we're not embracing limit as a part of it. Yeah. We think of lament, I think sometimes as the unfaithful response, but I actually think when we look at the scriptures, we see lament as being a response from the faithful people of God. It's interesting that when we study the scriptures, there's an entire genre called wisdom literature, right? So it includes what we would guess Proverbs, of course, but they're also included parts of the books of Psalms and Ecclesiastes. These is in there and even job, and within this genre, we can kind of divide it up a little bit further into segments that, that, and the kind of two segments, right? There's the, the segment, the section of this wisdom literature that tells us how the world should work. Proverbs is full of these right. Um, wicked people are going to meet their doom. Righteous. People are going to prosper, right? You work hard. You, you get the reward, all of that. Um, but then there's this other segment included in wisdom literature that tells us the way things
Speaker 2 00:07:33 Actually work sometimes.
Speaker 1 00:07:36 So we've got job. He was blameless and he's still suffered. We've got the preacher in Ecclesiastes, Jews who had it all. And then he realized all wasn't everything it was cracked up to be. But all of this is actually still included. As I mentioned in the genre that scholars call wisdom literature. And I think that makes sense. It makes sense to real highs, that wisdom, isn't just knowing what you should do to live a good life, right? Get out of debt, give to the poor work hard. But wisdom also includes this, understanding that doing everything right, is actually no guarantee that things are going to go that way. And even though things don't go your way or you don't see it pan out the way it should should, God is still good. And it is a righteous act to mourn when things aren't, as they should be when there is sickness, when there's death, when there's war and there's tragedy, when there's loss, what wisdom doesn't tell us to do is put on a happy face anyway, and sing songs of praise. Like nothing is wrong. Wisdom tells us to mourn and grieve our losses too, express them to God. And to be honest with ourselves and others and him, when we see that things aren't as they should.
Speaker 1 00:09:14 Now, I know here comes Jesus, right? And we, we see it's true. Our savior comes in and he does encourage us. Don't be dismayed, right? Because in this world you will have trouble. He tells us, but take heart because he's overcome the world. And a lot of times we look at those words and other passages, um, and we want to take the last part at the expense of the first part, right? We want to say, but take heart. He's overcome the world. And, and we skip over this, but in the world we will have trouble part. But I think when we look at the whole of what we conceive of Jesus' life from scripture, um, I don't necessarily think he wanted us to skip over that first part in the world. We will have trouble. He acknowledged it, and that means we can acknowledge it.
Speaker 1 00:10:13 And it doesn't mean there's not a place to sing songs of exhortation to one another and worship and praise to him about his triumphant nature. And that he is the victory. I think we should sing. It's good. But I also think we see in Jesus and example to mourn with those who mourn, to be honest about what we're feeling with the Lord and to embrace lament, Jesus got frustrated, distressed, even, right. He admitted to his friends that he was deeply grieved in the scripture, say I'm even unto death. This is God. This is our example, God living in the flesh, the maker of heaven and earth, who knows all things. And he sweated blood, just a Stone's throw away from his friends that he had asked to accompany him because he was angry.
Speaker 1 00:11:04 This is our model. If you, years ago, I had the chance to have dinner. My family. And I did with them, a woman who had spent almost two decades of her short life, actually she's younger than me. Um, she had spent about two decades in a UN refugee camp on another continent almost 20 years. And she shared her story. And I, I really had to keep myself from just bawling my eyes out in her presence. And on the way home, my husband asked me how I felt, but it really was more than I could take in. And we drove home largely with me just being quiet, just this thinking about what she had said and the things that she had gone through. And I really could just hardly imagine. I just could hardly imagine
Speaker 2 00:11:55 Them. Now. She
Speaker 1 00:11:58 Also had testimonies of course, about how God moved and she could see his hand and, and, and no doubt. Um, there were beautiful parts of her story,
Speaker 2 00:12:09 But
Speaker 1 00:12:10 All in all, there was just way too much loss and grief to try to ignore. And I don't think we should. She was really, she was really hurting and she was having to recover. She and her family from, from her experience and on the same note, I'm no expert in world politics, but I have seen the images like many of us coming out of Afghanistan this month. And I know enough to know it's heart-wrenching in our own country. And on our borders, there are more crises there. Then I think the average American will ever be aware of, and our neighbors have things going on in their lives that we will never know. But even though we may not be the ones suffering directly at times, lament is still good, inappropriate to do this in community. It's a recognition that things aren't as they should be. And indirectly, I think it's a cry. It's a prayer. Like God, Jesus taught us to pray for his kingdom to come here on earth as it is in heaven, because we're crying out and saying, this is not it. This doesn't look like heaven. God, please bring it.
Speaker 2 00:13:30 And in all
Speaker 1 00:13:31 Of this, I keep thinking about Psalm 1 37. Now, if you've read this one recently, or you're familiar with it, you know, it is a nasty one. Okay. And I hesitated to share it here, but I wanted to bring this out because the Psalmist does not hide his limit in this passage. The context here is that the people of Israel have been taken captive by the Babylonians. And I can't really imagine what that must've looked like. They're not living in their Homeland where they've built their lives, right? And their homes, their, their jobs, their careers, their families on the promises that God made to their ancestors. They're not there anymore. They're living in their captors land instead. And all of this time, they are aware that their homes that they left are in ruins and here they are being forced to survive under a new regime that does not seem particularly as sympathetic right to their lives in life.
Speaker 1 00:14:38 Here's Psalm 1 37 by the rivers of Babylon. There, we sat down and there we wept. When we remembered Zion on the willows there, we hung up our harps for there. Our captors asked us for songs and our tormentors asked for mirth saying, sing us one of the songs of Zion. How could we sing the Lord's song in a foreign land? If I forget you O Jerusalem, let my right hand with her. Let my tongue claim to the roof of my mouth. If I do not remember you, if I do not set Jerusalem above my highest
Speaker 2 00:15:24 Joy,
Speaker 1 00:15:26 Remember, oh Lord, against the Edomites on the day of Jerusalem's fall. How they said, tear it down, tear it down, down to its foundations. Oh, daughter Babylon. You Devastator happy. Shall they be who pay you back with what you have done to us happy? Shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the,
Speaker 2 00:15:56 We can hear the hurt, the cry in
Speaker 1 00:16:01 Those lyrics, the devastation, the cruelty, the mockery that they experienced.
Speaker 2 00:16:07 They just want to go home, but they can't
Speaker 1 00:16:10 Because it's ruined and they're trapped.
Speaker 2 00:16:15 But what about us?
Speaker 1 00:16:18 Should we sing this? It's in the Bible. Maybe our situation is good. Shouldn't we just be rejoicing.
Speaker 2 00:16:28 Yes.
Speaker 1 00:16:31 The lyrics. The Lord is good. His steadfast love endures forever. That's amazing. And it's appropriate,
Speaker 2 00:16:38 But singing the songs of partake singing. Those are also appropriate.
Speaker 1 00:16:44 I saw an interview with, uh, old Testament scholar, John Golden gay, um, in a video. And I'll actually link it in the show notes where he described being a young pastor. And, um, he was pushing back against a mentor because they were having a discussion about including Psalms in their readings. And, um, and John pushed back and basically said, no, why should we, I think he says something like, why should we waste our time with those stupid Psalms? But as John aged and he experienced life and he ended up marrying a woman, the love of his life, his first one, he did remarry after her death, but she had a debilitating disease. And, um, I would say it's fair to say his tune literally changed in those in those years. And at the beginning, when he was at young pastor, his mentor had told him when John pushed back, his mentor said, my boy, one day you will need the Psalms.
Speaker 1 00:17:52 And John reflected in this interview. And he said, he realized how true that was. And, um, later in the conversation, he talked about how he and his new wife and their family regularly pray through the Psalms for others, uh, for their neighbors, for communities that are in crisis for refugees, for those who are suffering around the world. And it's, um, it's a hard, and it's a beautiful thing, but I want to invite us to do the same thing. Uh, I've been listening to an album lately by, uh, a community called the porters gate. And I'll, I'll link that in the show notes, but they have an entire album of lament songs and there are others out there. Um, the first time I listened to this album all the way through I, I cut carrots and just cried, um, preparing dinner. I think the American church is starting to wake up to honestly, to what most of the church in the world. And throughout history has already known that in this world, we will have trouble and we can take heart because our savior has overcome the world and we can weep for, and with the world in, in our own suffering like that same savior did and taught us to do by his example. It's true that joy may or may not come in the morning, but for now, I just want to encourage us that it's okay
Speaker 2 00:19:35 To weep
Speaker 0 00:19:37 The links for all the resources mentioned in today's episode can be found in the show notes, music, and podcast production by Seth B SETI. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app, you can also visit us at that. Makes total sense.com.
