Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Every one of us is wired by God to live out generosity and justice. But the how sometimes eludes us, that makes total sense is a way for us to get together, posture ourselves as learners, and challenge one another, to practice generosity and justice in a tangible way every day.
Speaker 2 00:00:22 Okay. I feel like I'm not gonna take everyone on like a breathing exercise, but I'm feeling a little bit like that because as my guest very wisely said, who among us has not had <laugh> technical difficulties. So I'm a little bit late getting this, uh, recording started, but I'm super, super, super excited to be here with Kate Boyd. Hey Kate.
Speaker 3 00:00:46 Hey, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. I feel like I sort of know you like through Instagram or whatever, but we've never actually like talked and so it's kind of fun. I know,
Speaker 2 00:00:56 It's really funny. I feel the same way and I, in fact, I think that, I'm trying to think if you've interacted with my husband when he used to be on Twitter way back in the day. Yeah. But I told him, I was like, Hey, come, come say hi to Kate if you want. And then I, yeah. And I'm like, but we don't actually know each other. So anyway,
Speaker 3 00:01:13 Tell him I say hi. We
Speaker 2 00:01:14 Tweeted at each other quite a bit. Um, but yeah, I'm, I'm super pumped. Uh, I'm super pumped. And actually what was funny is he was like, you know, he tells me, you know, Kate Boyd has a new book coming out. You should see if you can get her on the podcast. And then it was like maybe a week later it like arrived in the mail and I was like, oh, well isn't this like, this is fantastic timing. So anyway, I'm super, super excited and the book is great. So just first of all, thank you. Thank you for it. Just thank you so much. I just think, oh my goodness, it's gonna be, it's gonna be so great in the, in the world, especially where we are right now. So thank you for it.
Speaker 3 00:01:52 Yeah, I'm glad it's out there and I'm glad that, um, you know, it's, it's resonating with people cuz that was really all I wanted was to sort of give people vocabulary and then like a different path forward or just help them unpack things. And so it's been really, um, great to see that it's doing what I hoped it would do as far as like how people are interacting with it.
Speaker 2 00:02:17 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's super great. So the name of it before we get too much farther is an untidy faith journeying back to the joy of following Jesus. And what I wanna say is one of the, um, one of the things that caught my eye, and now I can't even remember who said it, one of your, um, oh, it was, it was Jared BAAs when he said, it's not a how to but a how I did mm-hmm. <affirmative> book. And I kind of had that in my brain as I was reading it cuz I thought that was a really good phrasing and I thought it, the more I read, the more I thought it described very well what you did here. And I wanna point that out because one of the things that you are pretty, I don't know, I felt like you were pretty open with, in the book, at least how I perceived it, is like this journey, um, uh, journeying back to the joy of following Jesus. Like, everyone's kind of on a different journey and so ours isn't going to look like yours. Exactly. It's not gonna mirror yours. We haven't had the same experiences or the same upbringing, but connecting with one another's stories I think helps us to maybe find our place in our own a bit easier in some ways. So that's kind of what I felt in your book.
Speaker 3 00:03:33 Yeah. Yeah. I think, because one thing I've experienced over the last few years in sort of the deconstruction space is that everybody has such a different way that they're going about it or ideas that they're examining, um, or even things that prompted what they're going through. And so I wanted to be really upfront that, you know, I, I'm not trying to tell anybody how to do it, but by maybe showing, you know, a different way or how I sort of unpacked ideas that maybe it would offer some kind of blueprint to somebody or just give them some different information that might send them on their own rabbit hole, right. To figure out what it is that they want. And so I think that's been, um, so yeah, I didn't wanna write a book about how to deconstruct because I don't think there is one way and I don't think that would even be helpful.
Speaker 3 00:04:27 So <laugh> for most of us. And so I figured, hey, let's talk about what it looks like to deconstruct, but still, you know, be in a space where you haven't fully given up on Jesus or the church, but you do wish for something different and you are looking for ideas that are maybe, you know, more life giving and so what does that look like to work through a process? And so that's kind of just what I did was unpacked a lot of the ideas that have shifted for me. And even now I would probably communicate things a little differently, you know, in the book just came out a few months ago and so like I think it's a continual journey, um, for all of us. But yeah, so I was, I just hope that it gives people, um, a vocabulary or a few reference points to kind of jump off of for themselves.
Speaker 2 00:05:19 Yeah. I wanna start with some of that vocabulary because I found it to be helpful and one of, because anyway, I wanna say Kate is, um, Kate is a student, she's a learner. And in this book I find that you're a learner and a teacher. And so it's, it's really, it's really, um, helpful. Uh, especially, I don't know, I I I think because I live in that world too as being a student, it's like, you know, we're kind of, we're kind of all in this together and then some of us have a little bit more maybe experience or vocabulary in some areas than others, and so we can kind of help each other along. And so, um, so your seminary studies come out in this book, which I think is really helpful. Um, it's also written in a way that anybody can pick up and read it.
Speaker 2 00:06:05 And so you do kind of define or give us the kind of classical definitions of deconstruction, which I think are helpful from Dorita and others, but then also this language that I thought was helpful was disentangling as a part of discipleship. Mm mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, gosh, can you like, help us a little bit with that? Partially because I wanna say, uh, I don't know, I think when we, maybe when we, when seminary students are studying this period of time, maybe a hundred years from now, they will no doubt, I feel like see this trend in their books, right? Like this was, this was a, this was a trend at least in American evangelicalism where lots of people were kind of going through this similar thing and blah, blah blah. Um, so what I wanna say is there, there is also some pushback against that language though of deconstruction.
Speaker 2 00:07:01 A lot of people don't like that language, but this disentangling as discipleship concept that I want you to talk about more was something that I've found this language is maybe a bit less, I don't know, has a bit less baggage with it. Maybe it's a bit easier. And, and it kind of explains how that process really is more of a, a universal process. Even if you haven't, don't find yourself kind of maybe in this stereotype of what some people might say, oh this kind of Christian is deconstructing, I don't even like that. But some people kind of wanna force us in that way. Yeah. But this dis disentangling is a part of discipleship to me feels, um, much bigger, well-rounded, kind of a more universal, um, experience. So can you talk about that a little bit?
Speaker 3 00:07:47 Yeah, I mean, I think when I first started the process of deconstructing or disentangling, um, people weren't talking about doing that kind of thing. Like it was sort of, I mean, it was 10 years ago we didn't have vocabulary. I have no doubt that people were doing it. We just didn't have it. I'm very sorry if there's background noise.
Speaker 2 00:08:07 Oh no. Okay. No, I
Speaker 3 00:08:09 Was checking something else over here. Yeah, no, that's fine. They just like, I don't know, they're doing something in the building. It's weird. Okay. Anyway, that
Speaker 2 00:08:16 I know. Well my mask may pipe up here so we'll, we'll we'll have Seth fix it if we get, if it gets it crazy
Speaker 3 00:08:20 <laugh>. Um, so we didn't have vocabulary for it. And so, you know, 20 17, 20 18 when I started popping into the circles and realizing like, oh, hey, that now that people are talking about it, that sounds a lot like what I did or am doing or whatever. And I realized that like a lot of things, people on either extreme of the deconstruction spectrum, you know, were the ones most vocal. So the ones who sort of left all together or the ones who were completely against it and I was like, you know, I don't fit either of those, those things. Where do I, you know, and I feel like there's a lot of people doing that. But like my journey started from a good experience with the church and, and I recognize that that is a privilege and, and an honor and very, very wildly different to a lot of people's, which is part of why I was very hesitant to like try to tell people how to deconstruct because my process was so different.
Speaker 3 00:09:17 But I feel like really for me, because my experience started with churches overseas and witnessing believers there and really just sort of like seeing faith lived out in different environments then, you know, and even though those environments were, you know, churches planted by evangelicalism, it was so different than what I experienced at home. And so what I realized was that actually a lot of the things that I had maybe made essential or like really wrapped my faith up in and like built it not quite on but like were very woven into it, were cultural pieces. So things that like felt like big deal breakers were like not like, didn't even make sense anywhere else, you know, or with any other, you know, group of people. And so I was like, you know, maybe I've got some things a little mixed up or they're just sort of like attached.
Speaker 3 00:10:14 And so yeah, I really just felt like that was me. My process was separating out what those things were and realizing that like whatever can't fit as a principle everywhere else in the world for every kind of people, then maybe it's not an essential of things. And so, you know, and it's totally fine for theology to be contextual and application to be contextual, but it's when we start import, you know, exporting that contextual onto somebody else that I realized I was really hitting a wall. And so yeah, so I sort of used the term disentangling, um, because that's what it felt like was just sort of like figuring out, separating it out, what that was. Um, and yeah. And so, and then the more I did it, or even, you know, as I was like figuring out, you know, exactly how to communicate what I was trying to communicate, I realized that like actually that's kind of what we all should be doing all the time.
Speaker 3 00:11:11 You know, like the whole New Testament is them trying to figure out what faith looks like as they, you know, in start, you know, what does faith look like now with Jesus? What does faith look like now that they're gentiles? What does faith look like in Ephesus or in Corinth or in wherever? What does it look like in the empire under persecution if you're in Revelation? Like there's all these different ways that people are working out their faith and figuring it out and disentangling it from maybe some assumptions that they had or their own cultural baggage, um, in order to make it, you know, separate or clear or something new altogether in a lot of ways. And so, yeah, I really think that's actually what the work of discipleship is for me as a young person. It was very much like, what do I believe?
Speaker 3 00:11:59 And like just getting that down. But I realized that actually even that, you know, point of view left, left me to like a certain level of pride or something right, that I needed to separate out because at least I knew all the doctrines and that made me better or whatever it was, right. Where I was a good kid who followed all the rules and that made me better. And, and that's something that I need to disentangle because there's still something in me. So it's not just like knowledge and understanding and application. There's a lot of like, I think the way that we talk about, you know, the idols of our hearts or all these different things that we've communicated but we haven't really thought to do in, in a long time or emphasized in a long time beyond a surface level. And so, yeah, I think the more I read the New Testament, the more I was like, huh, this feels a lot like what all of us are doing.
Speaker 3 00:12:54 It's just that we haven't seen it on this scale or we haven't been able to talk about it or we just haven't seen it in this particular, you know, time and place right now. Like it's sort of new, but I mean the reformation right? Was a disentangling was a change. And so I think we're just sort of seeing what it looks like now with all the tools and information that we have in this day and age. And I think that is the ongoing work of just reconciling what is the vision of God, what is the message of God and what does the life of God look like in our time and place with the information we have and with all the wonderful things that we, you know, have in front of us and how do we then make that something that makes sense? Um, and that really is what kind of, I was like, okay, that's what I think we're doing and I think that we should be working on instilling that in the way that we approach our faith because I think we will always have to be doing that.
Speaker 2 00:13:58 Yeah. I, uh, I, gosh, I wholeheartedly agree. I, this is one of the places where our stories somewhat overlap. I think near the end of the book you mentioned that your upbringing was pretty Southern Baptist Convention and uh, and mine was too. And we, you, you had a little section where you, you kind of alluded to the fact that when you were growing up, like a lot of other people's just seem, it just seemed like their stuff wasn't right because it didn't line up with your stuff. I'm, I hope I read that correctly, but I thought Yeah, because that's exact, I I had those exact same, you know, conversations and you know, as you mentioned, your, your friend from different, even different Christian traditions, you know, just kind of wasn't, you know, right. And, and as you, as you talked about your yourself and your experience, you're like Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:14:45 And those are things that need, we need to be disentangled from, you know, from our faith. One of the things that makes that difficult though, I think for some of us, yeah, and this is what I want you to talk about next cuz I really love this conversation, is that sometimes we have come to feel like those doctrines or the things that we know that we know, that we know mm-hmm <affirmative> are there because they're biblical and that word <laugh> even, it's like, oh my goodness, you know, so I don't usually do this. I'm gonna put a couple of resources that you may or may not have seen. So these are Alexis Little just things that people might wanna read or you know, that might help them, um, in a, in addition to this conversation, one of them has evolving faced most recent podcast episode with Barbara Brown Taylor, um, and Barbara Brown Taylor. Barbara Taylor Brown,
Speaker 3 00:15:40 Brown Taylor, I think Brown Taylor.
Speaker 2 00:15:41 I think so too. Yeah. Um, anyway, that my husband um, I just listened to it because he uh, said it was really good and it is and she talks about the Bible and then also Fuller Seminary, which is where I go to school, has a statement on in Errancy that was a real big controversial to do when they put this out decades ago. And so I'm just gonna kind of throw those out as resources in addition to the book in this part of the conversation right now. But talk to us about your experience or however you wanna frame it with the, the Bible, Kate, come on.
Speaker 3 00:16:18 And it's funny because like I think people, um, critics of mine say that I'm, I'm not into the Bible or I don't care about it or whatever, which is so funny to me cause I'm like I am like one of the most bibley people that I know <laugh> like, like
Speaker 2 00:16:35 I'm like shaking because I'm laughing, like trying not to like laugh into the mic. I'm like hilarious.
Speaker 3 00:16:39 David
Speaker 2 00:16:40 Obviously read any of the things that you've, anyway it's
Speaker 3 00:16:42 Fine. Yeah. I was like, it's just that. So I think when I grew up in ay was you know, everything um, everything in the bible, every single word, every single letter um, in the original autographs anyway was inspired by God. And I sort of say that with a smirk because we don't have those. And so now I'm like, that's kind of silly because like now knowing that like there are manu tons of manuscripts that like conflict in little ways, you know, um, that <laugh> that that's just funny to me now. It wouldn't have been funny to me then, but it's funny to me now. Um, and so it required, you know, whatever the simplest plaintiffs reading of the text was. But of course that was for us based on the English translations that we had. Um, I grew up very like not necessarily K J V only, but K J V emphasized and then they like slightly moved. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:17:41 Kjv, if it's good enough for JC is good enough for me, you know?
Speaker 3 00:17:44 That's right. You know, um, and I actually had somebody on Instagram tell me that the kjv was directly inspired and I was like, that is not, that's not true. Um, I don't know how to tell you that <laugh>, that's not true if you don't know that. Um, so anyway, all that to say, I think, um, so for me the bible and the word biblical now I can sort of see them as like tools or even sometimes weapons against a lot of ideas or people. Um, and I, and so what I realized was that actually Inerrancy meant for a lot of people and inerrancy of their interpretation versus an inerrancy of what is there, right? Because the reality and even this like say yesterday on Twitter, some guy was like, you know people, it strikes me that all the scholarship around second Timothy two 12, um, or first Timothy two 12, I always like mix up the numbers, um, about women, you know, don't seem to agree.
Speaker 3 00:18:47 And so that's why egalitarianism is false. And I was like, that makes no sense. That just means we don't agree. And that's the point is that like there is so much between context and language and you know, just like the actual foreignness of the Bible. I think we forget that the Bible is like such a foreign text to us, um, that we sort of have removed all of the hard parts and just sort of like tried to take it on its face. And to be fair, not to hate on translators, I think they do an excellent job and it's such a hard job to translate as a person who has like had to do it for class. Um, I'm not great at it, but I do my best <laugh> cuz it's hard and there's so many things to consider and there are so many choices to make, um, along the way, like what does that preposition refer to?
Speaker 3 00:19:42 Because all the words are out of order, they don't have to go on order. It's not like English, there's not an actual syntax to anything. It's just everywhere. And so, um, what I, when I realized that that was actually about interpretation and when I was like reading a bunch, I've read a whole bunch of like doctrinal statements at this point from like, you know, confessions of faith of different denominations. Um, I was like, you know, that's, I can see how they're getting that too. And they have bible verses to back up what they're doing just like these people have bible verses to back up their thing. And I was like, so maybe it's not that it's biblical or it's about an errancy, but maybe it's about, you know, part of this is understanding that the Bible is really hard to understand and that even whatever we believe we can call it biblical.
Speaker 3 00:20:27 Um, although interestingly enough, we usually put that around things that don't actually reflect examples from the Bible. Like biblical marriage to me like just makes me laugh cause it's like, oh, polygamy and like concubines. Is that what you meant? Because that's really <laugh> most of the Bible shows. Um, you know, and so I think, um, there's so much of this that we get sort of caught up in and like being right. And so my relationship with the Bible has changed in that I still look for truth. Absolutely. And I still look for guidance and how I live my life and I'm very into theology. Like I love thinking about how we fit all these things together and what it all means and um, but I have released the need for my interpretation to be the only one. Um, because I don't know, it's one of those things where like the more you know, the more you know you don't know.
Speaker 3 00:21:21 And so I have to hold that with humility, but it doesn't mean that I can't have a process like for figuring out what it means and not just means to me, but like trying to get a good, um, what feels like a solid even scholarly right? Look at the Bible without having to like it be the thing that I shoved down everyone's throats. Um, and so yeah, my relationship with the Bible has changed because I read with so many more contexts in mind. Um, and I read with a variety of people, community is one of those contexts that I use the bible with and I learn so much more from a variety of people and backgrounds and experiences and um, yeah. And so the Bible is more of a less of a weapon and like more of an experience and more of like a, a joyful thing, right?
Speaker 3 00:22:15 Cause I'm not just like trying to find the right answer. It's not like I'm studying for a test. I'm like learning how to be a human with other humans. Um, you know, in a way that I believe God has designed us to. And so I think there's a sense in which that has sort of shifted for me. Um, you know, unless you think I don't care about the Bible, my longest chapter is about the Bible because I think it's so important, <laugh>. Um, but yeah, so I don't think about in a c as much. I don't think about like all these big fancy theological words. I just sort of like want to immerse myself in it as much as possible and like even bring new perspectives, um, constantly reading from different, you know, theologians and scholars because I wanna understand, um, the different perspectives that people can have.
Speaker 3 00:23:07 And so yeah, I hold it less tightly in the sense of like, I think of Jesus as my authority instead of the Bible is my authority. Like the Bible has the authority that I give it, um, because it tells me about Jesus because it tells me about life with God and life for God. But outside of that I hold a lot of that, um, in a much more like humble way. And I'm super curious about how other people approach it. Cuz I think that's the stuff that creates good conversation and dialogue and actually leads me to other things. And I think the other big thing that changed in relation to this is that like I trust now that God is good enough that even if I get it wrong, that my honest seeking and effort, um, and trust in God is going to be okay. Right? Like that it's going to handle whatever little things I get wrong. Um, and so that's kind of like how I work through it now.
Speaker 2 00:24:06 Yeah. That reminds me of a little line that Barbara Brown Taylor said at the end where she said something about where one of the places where she had landed. So kind of a spoiler alert, if you listen to this episode that her episode is, she said she's pretty okay, like has just kind of accepted that God must have accepted that it's risky to work with people <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:24:26 A hundred percent in this way,
Speaker 2 00:24:28 Right?
Speaker 3 00:24:29 That is like the worst plan ever, right? If you actually want like uniformity and like, I don't know goodness. Like it's just, it's not bad plan. No bad we're, that's the wrong place to bet if I was God, but maybe God knew what God was doing. <laugh> maybe
Speaker 2 00:24:46 So, right. Oh, thank you. Thank you for for talking about that. That's one of the places where I find this conversation goes back to frequently, right? Is yeah. Is kind of this, um, because the Bible tells me so and then we have to kind of actually yeah. Have that, those conversations around what you just mentioned. Um, so not only, I didn't realize that your bible chapter was the longest chapter, but what I did realize is that it does not live only in that chapter. And I was telling you before we started recording that I found myself like those, I loved hearing about your personal stories. Some of the places I found myself rereading and um, like noticing just a lot of richness where in these little places where you just kinda do these little mini exegetical
Speaker 3 00:25:37 <laugh>, you know,
Speaker 2 00:25:38 Um, little paragraphs. And one of the places that I would love for you to chat about a bit is you did that with Jesus parables on the kingdom of God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if I'm not mistaken though, this was kind of in and around a different context, which is part of the disentangling, which is America is right? Yeah. This Christian nation. And so there's this talk though of, of, of kingdom and, and the disentangling around that. And then, um, like I said, I just loved those those passages where Jesus talks about that because you helped me remember maybe realize how murky it really feels.
Speaker 3 00:26:29 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:26:30 It's not a super clear
Speaker 3 00:26:31 Concept. I mean even talking about it in the chapter and like trying to recap it, I was like, how do I say this? That like makes sense but also like doesn't try to oversimplify what's going on, right? Yeah. Because it is hard. I mean, and that's the hard thing about parables too. Not only like are they stories that have layers that you have to unpack, but they're stories that have layers that were said to an audience that's wildly different than me. And so yeah, that chapter I really sort of framed as like a great versus good chapter. It at least that's sort of like, um, in the first edit she was like, there's something. And I was like, yeah, I think there's a frame that's missing. So for me in my head I was working with a greatness versus goodness. Cuz I think that's what a lot of us get caught up in.
Speaker 3 00:27:17 Whether that's like because of America or, I mean, I'm just a, an achiever naturally, so like ambition and greatness and good things. Like I want those and I work for them. And, and so it can be really easy to get caught up in that, whether like individually or communally. And so I think at some point, you know, we sort of grabbed it on this kingdom of God, um, framework onto this like manifest destiny, America greatness framework. And they actually don't go together at all. And, and not even that they don't go together, but it's like so different than what Jesus was actually talking about because most of the time it wasn't really about like prosperity or any of that, it was about goodness. You know, it's not just the kingdom of God, it's the kingdom of good, like good holy, just things are what God is looking for.
Speaker 3 00:28:12 And, and yeah. And so really unpacking parables is a hard, um, do not recommend <laugh> trying that, but have at it have fun. But I think that's the other part is like getting to sort of see and interact with people around that. Because one of the big things that sort of, um, helped me was in a conversation with someone when I realized that I kept trying to make them about like who's in and who's out versus like, um, thinking of thinking of it in the sense of like sin or, um, things as opposed to people, right? And so I was like, oh, so this is where goodness holiness justice exists versus like, this is where good people, holy people, just, people exist, right? And so I think there's sort of a sense of how we attach a lot of that. Um, cuz it never really even says people we just sort of read into like wheat and fish are like the same thing.
Speaker 3 00:29:12 Um, but that's never really said outright in those. And so that was part of like where you try to balance. But yeah, I mean I think as you go through, you see that there's a sense of everything is working under the surface, but it's, you know, for God's purpose and the extension of the kingdom and then, you know, everything is, we won't know what's good and what's bad or who's in or who's out or however you wanna frame that. The whole point in a lot of those was that we don't actually know and who is there and who's not or whatever that is, right? And so I think there's a sense of, we think of the kingdom of God as like we will know by our own prospering or we will know by our own, um, association with people or our grouping, but there's actually so much that's not, that's like the opposite of that in those.
Speaker 3 00:30:08 And so really unpacking it is, yeah, that there is the sense that like, we don't know it's at work and it's so it's not something that we do or strive for, but we do participate in or it works through us. Um, and that it's a place where, you know, we, we sacrifice and we give up a lot knowing that eventually it'll be good, but we, we don't always get that right away. Um, yeah, so I find that even in the kingdom of God and the way it's communicated about in scripture, there's so much tension in how it's even handled, um, that, you know, the idea that it would be wound up in this greatness, um, feel so foreign to me now because I think that's where we kind of get, we tend to get stuck because we think of, you know, if it's good in any capacity, then it must be of God.
Speaker 3 00:31:03 Whereas like, so we think of it, you know, all this growth or this happiness or this whatever is what we sort of attach to that because that makes us feel good or that builds us up in a way. But so much of the New Testament show such a different picture of what Christianity is, and that's something we have to like, wrestle with, especially given our social location. So I try to sort of like remove the kingdom of God from those things. And it's not that it's not good or that there isn't goodness or good things or fun or anything there, it just means that we have to be really careful with how we talk about it and what we attribute to the kingdom of God because I think we so easily map our own desires on it. And that's a, that's a problem.
Speaker 2 00:31:47 Yeah. One of, one of the things, I don't know if you would track with this, but in that chapter, and then I also felt like there were a few data points. You alluded to it. It's like, well if if this is happening, then we're gonna know it because of our prosperity. Um, you, you mentioned the the seven mountains movement that people can, people can look up or, or, or read about. But, um, one of the things that I kind of came back to a few places in your book in my own experience is that I've always kind of, because I am similar, right? Like I'm a rules follower, I like to, I like to get the a you know, like all all of those things. Um, gosh, if I had a a dollar for every time it like rose up in my spirit that I just wanted to be right about whatever it was. Oh my gosh. Like, I mean, please so
Speaker 3 00:32:33 Often,
Speaker 2 00:32:33 Right? I mean, yeah, it's just not even funny. But part of the way that I wanted religion and the Bible and Christianity to work for me in that respect is I just, I wanted it to be a bunch of formulas, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like A plus B equals C kind of thing. You know? Like I, one of the ones for me was like I, the place, there's a place in, um, Philippians, I think, anyway, it's about not being anxious, right? Paul is telling his people not to be anxious. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, this is easy. All I have to do is he says, he says do this and pray and think about, you know, like be grateful for these things and then you won't be anxious or, you know, something like this. And I'm like, okay, well this is easy then we'll just have this formula.
Speaker 2 00:33:09 Or, you know, you do, you do these things and this person will quote, get saved, or you do this and then you're gonna prosper and then, you know, something is working or whatever. Um, but what I'm learning lines up with what you're saying, which is a, I don't, we, we can have whatever relationship with our Bible is gonna evolve, but I don't really think it's saying those kinds of things in those kinds of ways anywhere. Um, and then like, but then like how are, you know, those, those ideas when we read those into the scriptures and then it sounds like the scripture is saying those things mm-hmm. Back at us, if that makes sense. Like I'm, I'm saying that Paul is saying this and then it comes back at me and I'm like, oh yeah, this is it. This really affects our discipleship
Speaker 3 00:33:58 Hugely. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:34:00 Right? I mean, I don't know, it just, anyway, it was one of those places where I was like, this is, this is not good. This is just really, this is really, really not good. Um, okay, last thing and then I want, and then you, and I'm gonna let you, and then I'm gonna let you take it, um, wherever you wanna take it. I would love if we, I didn't ask you this ahead of time and I normally do, but again, I'm so flustered with that technology issue we were having. Can we talk about the, the yeast and the picture that you gave <laugh> of the, of the how yeast is in your home? Like just illuminated so much of this for me, and I'll say specifically where my mind went, the wild yeast mm-hmm. <affirmative> as opposed to like the the purposeful in in, in your story. Okay. Now that I've, like everyone's going, what in the world is she talking about now? Make sense of it for us because that, that word picture just did something for me, Kate. It just yeah. Opened my eyes in a real big way. So,
Speaker 3 00:35:06 Um, I think it was in the chapter about leadership, but um, I don't think the image has to stay there. Um, because there's a part where, you know, Jesus warns about the yeast of different groups of leaders and how, um, that affects everything. And that's because yeast,
Speaker 3 00:35:24 Um, is like a very pervasive thing. Um, so for context, my husband bruised beer at home. Um, he picked it up a little bit before the pandemic, but really hit a next level at the pandemic since we were home all the time. <laugh>. But there's sort of a joke in brewer circles that like, you think it's a lot of like mashing things and you know, boiling things, and it does have some of that, but the number one most important thing that you do is sanitize everything because on all of the plants and just like in the air all around you is yeast, it exists, right? And if you're a beer drinker, you know, maybe you have had a sour beer or something, right? And that's because those are like wild, um, types of yeast. And some like breweries had to like convert to like mostly sour breweries because they couldn't keep the wild yeast down, right?
Speaker 3 00:36:25 Um, and so what happens is if you don't clean everything, um, really, really well, all of that wild yeast gets into your beer and changes. So every yeast has a different like, flavor profile that it provides. So like Belgian beers have different yeast or like English beers have different yeast. American beers have different yeast. And that's because they, I don't know, work in, I actually, I'm not gonna say that's because, but they all end up with like different flavors because of what happens. And so if you end up with a different yeast in there, you call it infected. It's not like it didn't brew, it's just that it didn't brew the way you or didn't ferment, it's didn't ferment the way that you intended it to, you didn't plan it to because it got infected with wild yeast. Um, and so I think there's a sense of like, um, you know, if we aren't careful or aren't, and not to be alarmist, right?
Speaker 3 00:37:27 Like this isn't something we have to be like if we're not careful, everything's trying to get us, that's not what I'm saying. But I think it, we underestimate the ease at which ideas or culture or, um, value sort of like invade what what we are building or what we're trying to do or who we're trying to become. Um, you know, and we don't intend to, but it's just sort of there. It's in the ether, you know? Um, and so whatever substances you're working with or whatever you're trying to do, there's a sense in which there's the yeast that you're like trying to use to cultivate, but there's also this other stuff that may be working in. And so if you haven't done your due diligence or haven't been, you know, carefully constructing or working through or planning your recipes or keeping things clean, that other stuff gets in and you have to be careful of how that can change you, right?
Speaker 3 00:38:25 And what you are trying to do. So like in this chapter, it wasn't that, you know, these sets of leaders like meant to be, you know, bad examples or however they were used in scripture. Um, whether or not they were actually that in history is a different conversation. But, um, I think there's a sense of, you know, the way that things come down to us can either have been good yeast or wild east and we have to be really careful at looking at what that looks like, like looking at and separating out right disentangling what is good and what is just inherited or what is just passed down or what is just part of the normal conversation or the ether. And maybe that gives us a chance to be innovative or maybe that just gives us a chance to be introspective. But either way, I think we need to be on the lookout and looking for the ways in which we can keep ourselves, you know, um, walking in the right direction, um, and being formed into the quote unquote product that we want to be instead of, um, just allowing all of these like wild outside forces, um, that maybe that are very natural, are very much a part of the environments that we are in, um, to shape us without our knowledge.
Speaker 3 00:39:51 And so I think just kind of like having that awareness of what's around so that we can continue to, to walk and try and shape ourselves more like Christ, you know, with the help of the Holy Spirit in our community.
Speaker 2 00:40:06 Thanks Kate. I appreciate it. That, yeah, I just, it was the wild yeast for me. I was like, oh yeah man, I just have, anyway, it was always like good yeast, you know, like I threw something in the bread maker this week and I'm like, oh, it's the yeast, it's wonderful. But anyway, that wild yeast, that was, that was crazy. Good. Um, as we end, I, I was, I was thinking, how am I gonna ask you this because I feel like this whole book is the answer to that question of Kate, what would you say? Right? What would you say to someone? But, but somebody who did, who just goes, I, I think this is happening, right? Yeah. I think I might be starting to disentangle or starting to deconstruct, you know, it doesn't have to be something super crazy, but just if you had them for coffee and they said, oh, I'm about to go and you said, just, just hear me say this to you, how would you encourage that person?
Speaker 3 00:40:54 I mean, I think the first thing that a lot of us just need is permission. And so that's part of like, what I sort of see as what I do is just grant people permission to ask questions to be in process, right? Um, because a lot of the environments that we come from, there's sort of this expectation that perfection is where it start. Like is the barrier for entry.
Speaker 3 00:41:21 And I wanna change that to be like, process is the barrier to entry, right? If you are working through it, if you are thoughtfully engaging, if you have questions, if you're here and you're trying to be yourself and you're earnestly figuring things out, those are the people I want at my table, right? Those are the people I wanna listen to and probably even learn from because they're, they may be asking different questions than I am and questions that I never would've thought to ask because I'm in a different situation. And so I first just want everyone to know that like, it's okay. The Bible has like so many examples of people who doubted or walked through challenging times or asked God really hard questions. Like, there's a reason that exists in scripture. It's because it shows that it's okay <laugh>, right? It gives us that permission and even some of the vocabulary. Um, and so that's what I sort of is the first thing. And the second thing I say is like, always go to Jesus first. Um,
Speaker 3 00:42:25 A because that can really expedite some of your decisions in the sense of, if this whole thing is about Jesus and you're not that wild about it, then you kind of know where you are. But if you are still compelled by the person of Jesus and what, um, you know, God and human flesh did, then I think there's still something worth fighting for and working through. And that you can use that as a filter for how you interact with the rest of the ideas. Because I think that is so central. Um, and I have only found, you know, Jesus to be more compelling, more interesting, more beautiful, um, more welcoming, you know, and more patient than <laugh> than um, I ever thought. And so I think there is, that is really just the place to go, you know, and um, has really helped me. And a lot of times whenever I just need to like step back and refresh or reorient myself, going to the gospels has always been a, a place of like, healing a lot of, um, a lot of things in me. And so I encourage people yeah. To go with Jesus cuz it's,
Speaker 3 00:43:46 Um, yeah, it's definitely the yeast you wanna be with, you know, <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:43:51 Oh, Kate, I am, oh, I'm feeling refreshed as even as you say that. So thank you. Thank you so much. This has just been such a wonderful time together. This book is, is so great. And so I'll say the title again and then, um, obviously the link for where people can grab it will be in the show notes. But we've been with Kate Boyd, thank you so much and talking about an untidy, faith journeying back to the joy of following Jesus. Thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 3 00:44:21 Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 00:44:24 The links for all the resources mentioned in
Speaker 0 00:44:26 Today's episode can be found in the show notes, music and podcast production by Seth Busti. Be sure to give us a review on iTunes and subscribe at your favorite podcast listening app you can also visit us at. That makes total sense.
